Baptists = Protestants?

[Salty]

Where do you stand on the Baptist/Protestant issue

 

[Salty]

Hmmm 1 "other" -and no explanation -
Typical Baptist response! :laugh:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Ooops!

Hmmm 1 "other" -and no explanation -
Typical Baptist response! :laugh:

Salty...that may have been me...sorry. I'm just cautious about this stuff because I don't want to wind up being confused with those "Landmark Baptist-Briders" who I have seen go to extremes thinking THEY are the only true church. That is the same extreme as the Catholics (our Holy Mother"???)and as "presumptuous" as the "Assemblies of God",the "Church of God". or the "Church of Christ". Ughhhh!

For the record.....NO...I do NOT believe Baptists are Protestants!

I am a Baptist here because I do believe that Baptists who are biblically "literal" and "fundamental" are as close to the truth as God would have us to have it as anybody can be this side of Heaven. It irks me when so-called Bible-Believing "Baptists" want to take the word "baptist" off their church name. It is true that people paid dearly and many times with their blood both for the "distinctives" that Baptists hold as true....as well as the name. That said...when we get to Heaven it is possible that the term and name Baptist MAY finally be "retired" since we'll all be the BRIDE of the Lord Jesus Christ....regardless of what "denomination"(division) we were a part of here on earth. Only THEN will any true "unity" be possible. I dearly look forward to that day. Until then I am thankfully and with godly "pride" (if that is possible) a born-again Bible-Believing Baptist without regret or reserve. Bless you brother. And thanks for posting this poll that gives us the opportunity to declare the truth yet again!

Bro.Greg:thumbs::saint:

 

[righteousdude2]

To Me....

....it's like apples and oranges...they are all fruit!

And we know what the Word says about the fruit of the Spirit! (Galations 5:22-23) :wavey:

 

[preachinjesus]

What are we talking about when we talk about "The Reformation?"

Since that is a pretty huge and wide ranging term some definitions are essential.

Are we talking about the various segments of the movement, or isolating it to a figure or two?

Since the Reformation had some different parts, which part(s) are we talking about?

This would be helpful in order to answer the OP.

 

[12strings]

There are some thing in history that we will not know the full story of.

However, It is undeniable that Baptists share a large portion of beliefs with protestant churches, and most baptists would say a hearty AMEN to much of Martin Luther's recovered, Gospel-centered, Christ Centered, faith-centered, scripture-centered doctrine.

So doctrinally, in many ways we are protestant, in that we affirm scripture over church dogma, & believe the RCC to be in great error about very central truths, which we "protest" against.

Calvinistic Baptists can stand very close to conservative Presbyterians (Protestant) in doctrine, and in fact have historically.

Non-Calvinistic Baptists can stand very close with conservative Wesleyan & Methodists (came out of Calvinism...protestant) on many issues.

Regardless of lineage, the very beleif in Sola Scriptura means that lineage doesn't matter that much. If a missionary Airplane dropped a Bible in the middle of a remote village, and people there read it and began a baptistic church, there should be no doubt that they have a true church, even with no direct personal or theological lineage from anywhere.

 

[saturneptune]

Everyone misses the point. The reason there is a difference between Baptist and Protestants is the model of the church. Protestants are universal, invisible churches, Baptists are local, visible.

 

[12strings]

Everyone misses the point. The reason there is a difference between Baptist and Protestants is the model of the church. Protestants are universal, invisible churches, Baptists are local, visible.

So would you say that those who believe there is both (Universal/invisible) & (local/visible) are not really baptists?

 

[Salty]

Everyone misses the point. The reason there is a difference between Baptist and Protestants is the model of the church. Protestants are universal, invisible churches, Baptists are local, visible.

Many non-Baptist churches are local and visible, yet believe in the concept of the universal church.

So are you saying if a Baptist church believes in the universal church, it is not really Baptist?

 

[saturneptune]

Many non-Baptist churches are local and visible, yet believe in the concept of the universal church.

So are you saying if a Baptist church believes in the universal church, it is not really Baptist?

That is exactly what I did not say. The three models I gave (once again for the theologically challanged)

RCC operates on the basis of a visible, universal church
Protestants operate on the basis of an invisible, universal church
Baptists operate on the basis of a visible, local church

That is how the churches operate here on earth, or the way the denominations see their mode of carry out the work of the Lord. This has nothing to do with, nor was anything said, nor does Scripture say, there is not a universal church. The universal church transcends all denominations and groups of true believes. Its function is in eternity, not on earth.

Non Baptist churches that operate as visible local churches are few and far between. If they are not called Baptist, they are called churches of like faith and order. It seems we are into splitting hairs and playing word games instead of understanding concepts.

All Christians, Baptist or not, believe in the concept of a universal church, as it is in Scripture, it just has no function on earth.

Churches in Pauls letters and Acts function as local churches, not ones with hierarchies. (Another thread). What is it with defending other denominations over Baptist as of late? It seems rampant.

 

[12strings]

RCC operates on the basis of a visible, universal church
Protestants operate on the basis of an invisible, universal church
Baptists operate on the basis of a visible, local church

That is how the churches operate here on earth, or the way the denominations see their mode of carry out the work of the Lord.

1. Could you give an example or 2 of what you mean by the way they "function." For example, how does a Presbyterian, or Methodist Church operate as an invisible, universal church?

What is it with defending other denominations over Baptist as of late? It seems rampant.

2. I think that more and more people are seeing the wisdom and value in recognizing the contributions of groups that we disagree with...defending someone, as it should be done, is nothing more than standing for the actual truth, no matter who it applies to...

For example, if my Roman catholic, or methodist, or athiest neighbor were accused of sacrificing children to donkeys in his backyard, and I know that is not true...I should defend him. Period.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

The Truth is....

There are some thing in history that we will not know the full story of.

However, It is undeniable that Baptists share a large portion of beliefs with protestant churches, and most baptists would say a hearty AMEN to much of Martin Luther's recovered, Gospel-centered, Christ Centered, faith-centered, scripture-centered doctrine.

So doctrinally, in many ways we are protestant, in that we affirm scripture over church dogma, & believe the RCC to be in great error about very central truths, which we "protest" against.

Calvinistic Baptists can stand very close to conservative Presbyterians (Protestant) in doctrine, and in fact have historically.

Non-Calvinistic Baptists can stand very close with conservative Wesleyan & Methodists (came out of Calvinism...protestant) on many issues.

Regardless of lineage, the very beleif in Sola Scriptura means that lineage doesn't matter that much. If a missionary Airplane dropped a Bible in the middle of a remote village, and people there read it and began a baptistic church, there should be no doubt that they have a true church, even with no direct personal or theological lineage from anywhere.

Bro.12Strings....I think what you just said is that we all have a B I B L E lineage moreso than any particular denominational "distinctive". It just so happens though that THAT lineage is one that would BIBLICALLY speaking almost always guarantee that we would wind up being Baptists.....by definition. Just believe AND PRACTICE the Bible and 9 times out of 10 you'll BE ONE!! And it will be by IMMERSION that identifies one with the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. You won't find the practice of sprinkling either babies or adults anywhere in the Bible. An you won't find the "eucharist" or any "sacrament" of a wafer and a drink of wine becoming the literal body and blood of Christ either. You have to depart from the Bible to practice that kind of stuff. It is also a matter of history that Baptists or those who practice those kind of Baptistic distinctives HAVE been persecuted not only by the Papists but also by the "reformed" bunch as well. We may share some doctrinal similarities with the "protestant" denominations and they may in fact be our "brothers" on some terms...but many times their "reformed" and "covenant" theologies have not meshed well with Bible believing/practicing Baptists. From what I have heard and read, the early history of the Baptists here in the "New World" was frequently not a happy and peaceful repose.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

To Clarify....

That is exactly what I did not say. The three models I gave (once again for the theologically challanged)

RCC operates on the basis of a visible, universal church
Protestants operate on the basis of an invisible, universal church
Baptists operate on the basis of a visible, local church

That is how the churches operate here on earth, or the way the denominations see their mode of carry out the work of the Lord. This has nothing to do with, nor was anything said, nor does Scripture say, there is not a universal church. The universal church transcends all denominations and groups of true believes. Its function is in eternity, not on earth.

Non Baptist churches that operate as visible local churches are few and far between. If they are not called Baptist, they are called churches of like faith and order. It seems we are into splitting hairs and playing word games instead of understanding concepts.

All Christians, Baptist or not, believe in the concept of a universal church, as it is in Scripture, it just has no function on earth.

Churches in Pauls letters and Acts function as local churches, not ones with hierarchies. (Another thread). What is it with defending other denominations over Baptist as of late? It seems rampant.

SN....I believe you are right in this.(see the embolded text above) It is just spoken of in the New Testament as the "body of Christ" ....Yes?...or No?? And yes...it has no distinct function here on earth in this dispensation. Thank God we have a great gathering to look forward to in the New Jerusalem when the entire Body of Christ including the redeemed of the Nation of Israel will gather together and dwell in peace with our Lord for all eternity. I'm one of those "shouting" Baptists here.....I look foward to that day with great anticipation. We'll ALL have some shouting to do over there. Amen!!!:thumbsup:

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Jerome]

SBC Founder R. B. C. Howell, 1846:

"Neither can we submit to be classed with those who, after casting off some of the shackles of Catholicism, denominated themselves Reformed churches. We call not our churches reformed, because we believe them no better than their predecessors. . . .we are not Protestants, nor Dissenters, Lutherans, Calvinists, Arminians, nor Reformers, but what we have been in all ages, the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ."

http://books.google.com/books?id=Dl0...page&q&f=false

 

[Jerome]

"the Christian emperors were as bad as the Pagan, for the Christian emperors were not Christians, nor were they members, as I believe, of a Christian Church. The Christian Church, and especially that Church of which we are still members, which has never defiled its garments, but which, never having had any alliance with the Church of Rome, has never needed to be reformed,—that Church under its different names, Paulitians, Novations, Albigenses, Lollards, Wyckliffites, Anabaptists, Baptists, has always suffered. It matters not what state, what Church, may have been dominant, whether it has been Christian or anti-Christian, the pure Church of Christ has always been the victim of persecution" —Charles Spurgeon, "Fire! Fire! Fire!"

"The pedigree of every Anglican priest must, of necessity, have flowed through the Dead Sea of Popery. Our limpid streamlet runs not through that slough of filthiness, but comes down pure from earliest ages! Our doctrines and ordinances remain as they were delivered unto us by our Lord! Neither have we desired to add the traditions of men to them. . . .By your sires who were drowned by the hundreds for refusing homage to a superstitious rite, men who neither feared Luther nor the Pope, and were hated of all men and even by Reformers because they occupied a standpoint still bolder, clearer, and more advanced than all others" —Charles Spurgeon, "The Unbroken Line"

 

[righteousdude2]

I DO See Your Point....

Everyone misses the point. The reason there is a difference between Baptist and Protestants is the model of the church. Protestants are universal, invisible churches, Baptists are local, visible.

...it's kind of like the Prots are "Secret Service Saints" or even "Lady Clairol Christians!" Invisible to the point that only God knows for sure who they are and what they believe :smilewinkgrin:

 

[12strings]

SBC Founder R. B. C. Howell, 1846:

"Neither can we submit to be classed with those who, after casting off some of the shackles of Catholicism, denominated themselves Reformed churches. We call not our churches reformed, because we believe them no better than their predecessors. . . .we are not Protestants, nor Dissenters, Lutherans, Calvinists, Arminians, nor Reformers, but what we have been in all ages, the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ."

http://books.google.com/books?id=Dl0...page&q&f=false

That's obviously hyperbolic rhetoric, not the actual fact of the matter.

 

[preachinjesus]

Well since my original post went unanswered I'll assume we're going to speak of the entire Reformation and all its movements.

Therefore, it is undeniable that Baptists arose from influences related to the Radical Reformation. Thus Baptists are, indeed, Protestants.

On a side note: I've never met a group more willing to protest anything...so I'd definitely say Baptists are Protest-ants.

 

[Tom Butler]

From Ben Stratton's website Landmark Southern Baptists:

Concerning His churches Christ said: “On this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” If these words teach anything, they teach that the churches instituted by Christ and the Apostles would never die, but would reproduce and multiply and perpetuate themselves to the end of all time. If the words of the Master are true, and they are, there has never been a moment since the days of Christ when His churches were not in existence. If there has been such a time, then the words of Christ have failed of fulfillment. Our contention is that Baptists have been used to fulfill the words of Christ, and that Baptist churches are not only identical in faith and policy with the churches instituted by Christ, but are the legitimate successors of the churches organized by Christ and the Apostles.

(John William Porter {1863-1937} was a leader among Southern Baptists in the early twentieth century. A graduate of Southern Seminary, he pastored several large churches and served as editor of the Western Recorder from 1905-1913. He preached the annual sermon at the Southern Baptist Convention in 1915. He was moderator of the Kentucky Baptist Convention from 1913-14 and the Porter Memorial Baptist Church in Lexington is named in his honor. The above quote is from his book “The World’s Debt to the Baptists.”)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LandmarkSouthernBaptist/

 

[Tom Butler]

Another excerpt from Ben Stratton's website:

"The Welsh Baptists contend, that Baptist principles were maintained in the recesses of their mountainous principality, all along through the dark reign of popery, God had a regular chain of true and faithful witnesses in this country, in every age, from the first introduction to Christianity to the present time." J. Davis, 1835

(The above quote is from page 16 of J. Davis' book "A History of the Welsh Baptists", first published in 1835. The Welsh Baptists, like all other European and American Baptists in the early 1800's clearly believed in a succession of Baptist churches from the earliest times of Christianity.)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LandmarkSouthernBaptist/message/314