Baptists who don't believe in Hell?

[RomOne16]

I was reading a thread in the other religions forum where some were expressing a disbelief in Hell/eternal torment. That didn't really surprise me until I realized that some of the people who didn't believe in hell profess to be baptists.

So, to any baptists who don't believe in hell, my question is this; What do you do with scriptures such as these:

Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Rev 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And also, what scriptures do you use to support your belief that there will not be a hell/lake of fire/eternal judgement?

My questions are sincere and thanks in advance for the discussion.

 

[Daniel Dunivan]

Mom,

I do believe in Hell, but I may be able to illuminate the opposing position. I see one way of going at it (I am very open to correction here). First, the Bible is a book written in an ancient time with ancient thought-forms; therefore, some concepts such as hell, demons, miracles, etc. are primative ways of talking about the experience of God (also notice that most of your quotes are from Revelation and are easily dismissable through a modern lens of interpretation). Couple this with the concept of a loving God at Hell doesn't make sense. Even when we bring in ideas that God is also a God of judgment, it doesn't seem too just that God would infinitely punish someone who committed a finite number of sins.

I believe in Hell, because I think the scriptural jump here is too far (though my hermenutical perspective would not keep me from dealing with other things in this way), and the philosophical ideas are weak. I think sin is taken too lightly in modern theological reflection and this is one of those times when it becomes obvious.

Grace and Peace, Danny

 

[Me2]

first there are some large inconclusive thoughts that one can interject..

if the punishment for sin is endless..
Christ should still be there...

if God is Infinite..then hell is either a parallel manifestation of a spiritual attribute of God. or A spiritual manifestation of God.
He says he is Love

If God is Sovereign..
How can man disagree with his choice?
"Let us make man in our image"

if you would like further discussion..it would be best to post in the "other discussion". seeing as those who hold to such doctrine
are easily inflamed.

Me2

 

[John Wells]

Jesus spent much more time talking about hell than He did heaven! As to the relativistic interpretations of the Bible . . . baloney!

 

[Me2]

Jesus spoke in parables to limit carnal mens pride from being puffed up.

parables..figurative stories...

God is spirit..spiritual parallels..not physical

Me2

 

[tyndale1946]

I guess if Hell is figurative/spiritual then Satan is to!... And the lake of fire for eternal torment is also... And if hell is figurative/spiritual then why can't heaven be thought the same way? I guess the reason for not believing in hell is because we would not send our worst enemy there... There is always forgiveness as we see it... There is a real Heaven and real Hell!... Then again we are not God and he can do what he wants according to his own will and purpose... Have a question for you all... Why did God let Satan in his garden if he foreknew the outcome?... Among the Primitive Baptist are a small faction called nohellers but I'm not one of them and most Primitive Baptist believe that Hell is a real place reserved for the devil his angels and the non elect!... Brother Glen

[ February 21, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[Daniel Dunivan]

John,

What I said above would still apply, because what you have said does not speak to the hermenutic of suspicion, only to statistics. Anyway, Jesus spoke about the Kingdom of God/heaven much more than hell even in Mt, the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" gospel.

Grace and Peace, Danny

 

[Daniel Dunivan]

Glen,

I think the point is that they would have no problem with no satan; though I would think they would want to uphold heaven on the theological grounds I listed above.

Grace and Peace, Danny

 

[RomOne16]

Me2, are you saying that you believe that everyone, even those who do not believe in Christ, will be saved and given eternal life? If so, how do you argue this from scripture?

Yes, God is love but He is also a righteous God and so He requires a payment for sin. Jesus paid that sin debt, but those who do not repent and believe do not receive eternal life according to Gods word.

I am trying to understand your viewpoints and I thank you for your comments.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Me2:
if the punishment for sin is endless..
Christ should still be there...

I disagree. We all deserve an infinite punishment because we all sin against an infinite God. The only way we can pay an infinite punishment is if we are punished for all eternity (i.e. we never finish paying it). However, Jesus DID pay an infinite price, because he was the infinte God dying on the cross! All we have to do is accept that punishment on our behalf.

 

[Me2]

hello mom, first I dont argue..I witness.

and your question stems on who you believe Jesus is?

if you say he is God..then He is Sovereign..
if you say he is God..then he is worth all creation.
if you say he is God..then his death was for the covering of all sin..completely defeating Death.
if you say he is God..then his blood has the power to cleans every molecule of death in this universe.
if you say he is God..then all penalties have been paid for with no further punishment awaiting mankind.

if you say he is God. why is there a desire to dishonor him by thinking he doesnt have the ability to save whom he wills to the utmost. that he isnt aware of the chioces of man and their desires against him. that he is a passive God standing in a corner watching man "destroy" himself. and that he is totally incapable or doesnt care to resolve the issues before they become out of hand.

Why are you not allowing Him to love all his creation ?

Me2

 

[Me2]

Bartholomew, did he defeat death by paying for the penalty in full ?

if yes...no more penalty exists..for anyone.

if no...then Jesus was defeated by death.
death still exists. no new heaven..no new earth.

keeping in mind..we were not created when the decision was made to defeat death.

what is the need of a place of penalty..when no penalty exists ?

Me2

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Me2:
Bartholomew, did he defeat death by paying for the penalty in full ?

Yes!

if yes...no more penalty exists..for anyone.

This is true...but only for those who ACCEPT it!!! You can't have the gift of salvation from the infinite punishment you deserve UNLESS you accept it!!!

 

[John Wells]

Me2,

Are you really suggesting there is no hell, no unpunished sin, and that all of mankind will be saved?

 

[rufus]

BMA Baptists believe in HELL!

That's why we preach the gospel! We try to rescue as many as we can before it is too late.

rufus

 

[donnA]

If the wages of sin is death, and eternal seperation form God, then where is that going to be but hell. Or is God just kidding, everyones going to heaven in the end.
Jesus believed in hell, and thats good enough for me. The bible either means what it says or it doesn't, in that case how do we know which parts aren't true? Maybe Jesus isn't.

 

[RomOne16]

Hi Me2.

I don't say that Jesus is God, the scriptures do, and I believe the scriptures.

if you say he is God..then He is Sovereign.. I agree with this based on what the word of God says about God.

if you say he is God..then he is worth all creation. Based on the scriptures, I would say that God is worth more than all creation.

if you say he is God..then his death was for the covering of all sin..completely defeating Death. Yes, but Jesus himself said that we must believe . John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 11:25 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom 4:23-25 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


if you say he is God..then his blood has the power to cleans every molecule of death in this universe. if you say he is God..then all penalties have been paid for with no further punishment awaiting mankind.

Mankind doesn't have to go to eternal punishment, but Gods word says they must believe.

if you say he is God. why is there a desire to dishonor him by thinking he doesnt have the ability to save whom he wills to the utmost. that he isnt aware of the chioces of man and their desires against him. that he is a passive God standing in a corner watching man "destroy" himself. and that he is totally incapable or doesnt care to resolve the issues before they become out of hand.

I do not dishonor God. He is the all powerful Creator and His glory is beyond comprehension. But we only know of God what He has given us in His word, and His word says For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To those that believe He gives everlasting life. And to those who don't believe.....eternal separation from God in hell.

 

[Me2]

My version of hell has no literal flames..

when jesus spoke about it. it was surely figurative language describing a state of being.

question..is God infinite? my answer is yes.
which continuing in that line of reasoning.
so is heaven..which is the abode of God.

hell is not a spiritual state..whereas heaven is infinite (and invisible).
some say hell is literal. then heaven exists in the same space as a literal hell. (thats weird).

hell was mentioned by jesus as a consequence of failing to accept Gods FREE Gift of Grace and continue to hold onto the mosaic laws or remain in the sins of the flesh. (He spoke to the people at the moment in parables and surely no one here belives what he was saying is literal...
he said it was parables..hint hint hint.)

hell has torment..fear of not matching up to a holy and judgmental God. its mental. God has already forgiven the unbeliever..unfortunately he cant forgive you if you dont believe he can...no grace.
thats blashpheming the holy spirit....

not allowing the administering of Grace with only rules to follow and with a taskmaster continually reminding you that you are a failure..thats hell.

after death..there is only judgement.

at the judgement we find that jesus has paid all debt..and he didnt ask anyone wether he should or shouldnt.. He paid all debt.
therefore after death..no penalty.


keep in mind God gives faith to Live by Grace.
that is for the living.

but he also imputes grace...without the use of faith. which can be comprehended after death..

but we do have a problem with all the things that people have experienced and have been taught and is not glorifying to God. That is to be resolved in the next age..resolving guilt and dishonor.
that means teaching people how to forgive themselves and accept the love that God has for them through us..thats reconciliation by the way.

wether at that time there is pain..I do not know.
what I do know is what we are designed to do. and we will be in the middle of all of mankind doing just that..forgiving and administering mercy.

God is all in all in the end..

However many ages that takes.....

and you and I were chosen to be a participating part in his plans..to bring everyone into the glory of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Whats His Glory..That His Blood Covered All Iniquity that was produced by mankind. and that iniquity will be identified and by Personal choice will be given to Christ to "cover over".

However long that takes...
Me2

 

[KenH]

The traditional understanding of hell that many espouse today came out of the Dark Ages. If you investigate the teachings of the church for the first 500 years you will find that the early church generally taught the hope of universal reconciliation and not a hell without end.

Yes, there is a hell but what takes place there is remedial, much like what we suffer during this age but more severe, until all bow the knee before Jesus as their Savior and Lord. These will be saved by believing what they see just as the apostles Thomas and Paul were.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Savior of the world, not just of some people. And it doesn't say that Jesus is potentially the Savior of the world, but that He is the Savior of the world.

The Bible states that the last enemy to be defeated is death. The second death will be defeated as it is death.

I do not believe that God will continue to allow sin and evil to exist without end in His creation.

I do not believe that God will allow Satan to win by having what he desires - God torturing His creatures without end.

I do not believe that God would create a person(leaving aside the salvation by free grace or salvation by free will argument) that He would torture without end. After you study the subject in depth I doubt you will believe that is a characteristic of God - that He would create a person knowing He would be torturing him without end.

Here are some links that might be helpful to those who truly are seeking after truth -

hellbusters.8m.com/eby/torture.htm
hellbusters.8m.com/eby/lakeoffire.htm
hellbusters.8m.com/mbpunfailing.htm

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Bartholomew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me2:
Bartholomew, did he defeat death by paying for the penalty in full ?

Yes!

if yes...no more penalty exists..for anyone.

This is true...but only for those who ACCEPT it!!! You can't have the gift of salvation from the infinite punishment you deserve UNLESS you accept it!!! </font>[/QUOTE]The same sin(s) cannot be punished twice. To do so would mean that God is unjust.