Baptists who don't believe in Hell?

[John Wells]

Me2,

Granted that not all of the Bible is chronological, but I certainly believe it's crystal clear that the last three chapters of Revelation are. We have the close of the millennial reign of Christ, the release of Satan from being bound up, and after a short time he is condemned to the Lake of Fire. In 20:11 we have the great white throne judgement, and then:

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Rev 20:15

Then we see the creation of the "final heaven," the "new heaven and a new earth," followed by some detail of what that will be like. Then the following are close to the very last words of God's revelation to mankind:

Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolators and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. - Rev 22:14-15

This is followed by a warning not to add or take away from "this book," and the exhortation to "Come, Lord Jesus!"

Final scene, final curtain (of God's revelation to man) and we are given a picture of those inside the "gates," (Narrow is the gate and few are they that find it.) and those who are on the outside who are certainly not partakers of God's grace.

Now, either you have received additional direct revelation from God with "additional information," OR you would be well advised to read Rev 22:19 very closely and carefully!

Jesus did pay for all the sins of the world. He holds the ticket of grace that gives freely to all who come with contrite hearts to receive forgiveness. But He does not forgive those who do not come! (parable of the wedding feast) If you are left an inheritance by a wealthy family member, you have to show up (prove to the courts that you exist) to claim it and benefit from it. The same is true with our inheritance of the gift of salvation through belief in Jesus Christ. You have to show up in this life at the foot of the cross to claim that inheritance!

 

[Me2]

Hi John,
Rev is not my favorite but I get the jest of it.

John is speaking about OVERCOMERS. Those who have successfully completed God's obstacle course called sanctification.
In 1 John He lays out the stages of faith. The progressional changes, enemies and earmarks of identification of each individual stage.
remember our enemies. The world, flesh and devil. well during this process of receiving wisdom and actually living through the understanding..We see through the eyes (understanding) and Ears (wisdom) that it is Actually Jesus Defeating our enemies while at the same time telling us to stop doing.

like the young man. the warrior. clad with his armour and sheild and sword. OK now what ?
Paul writes to us...AAHH Just Stand as though you've already won.

the book of revelation is the unveiling from our eyes. revealing more and more of that very gaze.
Jesus coming to us destroying our enemies around us. or allowing us to actually see that our enemies are harmless. Towards him and ourselves. Paul describes things better but its still the same. Its the walk of Life participating in a process that God the Father has chosen SOME to enter.
In the end, God allows us to stand in victory and in the knowledge of who He is. He is sovereign and He loves His Creation.

Point Being..He Comes As The Warrior..The Lord

and interestingly enough in the process of sanctification..There are TWO Tribulations..
these are moments when our faith is tried. The second part of Gods message (the understanding).
between the child and the young man stage. our faith is tried concerning Gods Sovereignty. With the conclusion that Jesus is Lord.

But theres that second one..between the young man and the father stage....the great tribulation.
Why is it great..because it is trying ones faith concerning the character of God. Infinite Love.
Satan is loosed (again) with a final victory during this tribulation or trial.
just keeping in mind that the process of sanctification is ongoing and if you fail...Just Believe God Wont. Your Guaranteed to remain a member of the Elect. Yet You might not complete the level to enter into the Holy of Holies (OT Talk) or in our gentile language..become a father.

What does 1 John Say About Fathers..You Know Him Who Is From The Beginning....

That All Mankind was Beloved From Eternity Past
in the Thoughts of the Son

I Know my words sound silly but there not easy to say..Love your enemies..Im Not agreeing that retribution isnt necessary or not warranted. Im only conveying the message that God Gives Us.

That Were All Equal In His Eyes.
That No one Deserves Hell As Much As I.
If God Can Love Me.
He Can Love Everyone.

Me2

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Ken H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bartholomew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me2:
Bartholomew, did he defeat death by paying for the penalty in full ?

Yes!

if yes...no more penalty exists..for anyone.

This is true...but only for those who ACCEPT it!!! You can't have the gift of salvation from the infinite punishment you deserve UNLESS you accept it!!! </font>[/QUOTE]The same sin(s) cannot be punished twice. To do so would mean that God is unjust. </font>[/QUOTE]No it wouldn't. The first punishment was of someone else in our place. So, we have to accept it in our place. If not, he punishes us. Look, WHY WON'T YOU GUYS JUST BELIEVE THE BIBLE??????????????????

 

[Me2]

Bartholomew,

thats silly..If your wife bought you a new bible for a gift and gave it to you.
would you run off to the bookstore and pay them for the same book again ?

Seriously..Do you Believe if you dont accept a free gift that you become a "free agent" and therefore outside the bounds of God sovereignty.

You accept the Gift alright.
Its forced upon you..their is no choice.

wether you continue to understand just what kind of Mess GOD HAS PUT YOU INTO is up to you.
God has imputed rihjteousness to you before you understand it...
Do Babies Understand anything ?
here ya go..how about some milk.

We refuse later on down the process..during the trial of the child..remember all those quotes about disobedient children or children of wrath..
that means people who thought they could refuse the "free Gift"..Jesus is not their Lord either..
again Lord,Lord, I Never Knew You...and by the way that doesnt mean their not saved..That means that they have refused to continue in the process of sanctification..They were tried and Failed.
everyone that god uncovers the eyes and ears are saved. thats proven by the Gift of Faith. Its OSAS.
and you cant "give it back".
Me2

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Bartholomew:
So, we have to accept it in our place. If not, he punishes us.

So you admit you believe that God will punish for the same sin(s) twice. I submit that such a scenario would make God unjust and the Bible states that God is just. Therefore, your statement cannot be true.

Rather, if sin is paid for it is paid for - the fact that it is paid for is not dependent upon the action of someone else. So, you either believe it is paid for and therefore cannot be paid for again - or you don't believe it is paid for and must yet be paid. Those are your only two choices - unless you deny the doctrine of the substitutonary nature of the atonement of Jesus Christ(and that gets into a whole different line of argument).

By the way, I do believe the Bible. Just because we disagree in interpretation in certain areas doesn't mean you believe the Bible and I don't, or that I believe the Bible and you don't.

 

[Me2]

Hi Mom,

Question. Do you think you can ever escape God ?

He's infinite..that means he's everywhere...
every molecule and every inch of space has God within it. Even Outside of the bounds of our universe
everything that is created is of God but yet he's within its very space of existence.

Absolute seperation is never a question.

the very thought of loss of love demands God to suffer whatever the cost to maintain the whole of his love. and in so doing guaranteed the understanding and comfort in which mans receives through such great efforts. God Promises Man Eternal Life By Placing Man "inside" Himself.
"Our Image"..means..in christ"..or "in God"

The idea of creation with its many dual natures is to allow mankind to be a part of Gods creation. Its really a re-creation. that allows mankind to be the conduit in which God loves everyone through man. You should be proud to be chosen to be one of those individuals.
To Love, Be Loved, comprehend and even to be able to teach that comprehension to others.

be careful though when reading the bible for it has many plans within plans. punishment goes to those who choose to mix law and grace. theirs is the devil and the torment and the worms. moreso those who refuse to give honor where it belongs. those who refuse jesus is lord. God returns those back to dihonoring even their own flesh.

the lake of fire is simply Gods Plans..
the Refiners Fire..or the Word


its all symbology and the OT tells all if you wanted to hunt the symbols down.
Quite frankly I dont understand why it is in the New testament. One has to reflect just what the history and the Sociology of the Jews were To Interpret the meanings of the symbols. Its redundant but it does keep prying eyes from its true message.

Me2

 

[LadyEagle]

No hell? That's what Satan wants people to think. Satan's deceptions have been around a long time.

Scenario: Garden of Eden. "You won't surely die." Satan =

Scenario: Noah hammering away, building ark. "Rain? What's rain? That old Noah really is a nutcase. Wasting all these years building a boat out here in the middle of nowhere." Satan =

Scenario: Any drug/booze party any place: "Hell? If I die & go to hell, I'll be there with all my friends, all the booze & drugs I can get and all the women (or men) I want. That's if there really is a hell." Satan =

Scenario: 09/11/01 Hijackers thought they were going to Paradise with 72 virgins. What a shock for them to die in flames and seconds later be in flames for eternity. Satan=

If there is no hell, then God sent His Precious Son to Die for Nothing. John 3:16 means nothing.

BTW, this thread is preposterous. Am surprised to see this in the Baptist Only Forums of this board. Is this "no hell" theory what your Baptist churches are teaching? Or are you folks making this up as you go? Just curious.

 

[KenH]

SheEagle9/11,

There is most definitely a place called hell. What I am discussing is the duration and purpose of it.

 

[Me2]

I myself also didnt say there was "no hell".
just not a "literal" place.

Me2

 

[Matthew 16:24]

Hi Me2, How are ya?
I have exchanged beliefs in the past about Hell, haven't we?
I see you have not changed your belief, probably because you believe you are right. Anyway I admire your zealous for witnessing.


Satan took away the fear of God’s judgment with Eve. He told her she would not surely die. She chose to believe the voice of the devil and chose not to believe the voice of Almighty God. She sinned and later died, just as God said—even though she had chosen not to believe it would happen.
There are many cults and false religions in this generation that choose to believe the lies of Satan. Some say there is no such place as hell. Some say it is hell living on this earth. Some admit that there is a hell; however, they believe God sends no one there. Some admit that there is a hell, but only the vilest people go there.
There is even a certain denomination that claims there is a purgatory. They teach that most people go there instead of hell, and that, ultimately, most will be in heaven.
All these false ideas and doctrines, which contradict the Word of God, come from the devil. They often have the same intent as Satan had in the Garden of Eden. That intent is, to take away the fear of God’s judgment. This deception worked with Eve. It works with millions of people today. It is written:
Job 28:28-AND UNTO MAN HE SAID, BEHOLD, THE FEAR OF THE LORD, THAT IS WISDOM; AND TO DEPART FROM EVIL IS UNDERSTANDING.
Pv 3:7-BE NOT WISE IN THINE OWN EYES: FEAR THE LORD, AND DEPART FROM EVIL.
Pv 16:6-BY THE FEAR OF THE LORD MEN DEPART FROM EVIL. Once this fear of God and His judgment is removed, then people go forth willfully and sin.
So often when a person dies, people will say, "He has gone to a better place now." They don’t understand that most people perish to hell, not to heaven. While they are thinking that person has gone to a better place, they are actually crying out in torment words like, "I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME." Indeed, Satan does deceive the whole world.

Some say it is wrong to scare people with such teaching. This statement is contrary to God’s Word. Most people are unsaved. This is confirmed in the Scriptures. Only a few inherit eternal life. When an unsaved person dies, they perish to a place called hell. In hell, they are tormented day and night in the flame. Their tongue, in some manner, is set on fire. There appear to be various levels in hell, which seems to be located down in the center or bowels of the earth. Some have described hell as being like a volcano, but a person’s spirit does not die. They will retain their memory of the past and of their loved ones. It appears they will remember every single time that they had a chance to repent and receive Jesus as their Savior, but they refused. In hell, the condemned person will also remember his loved ones and will be in further anguish at the thought of them also perishing to this place of torment. It may be said, any person who dies unsaved, it would have been better for that person if they had never been born. For a very short time, they lived on the earth in rebellion to God’s will. They refused God’s love and mercy. Now, they shall suffer; they shall be tormented.
The unsaved person will remain in hell until after the Millennium has expired on the earth. The unjust are reserved to the day of judgment.
At the time of the great white throne judgment, the sea, death and hell deliver up all the dead that are there for the final judgment. The books are opened. There they are judged by their works. They are judged according to what they did. For this brief time, they should have some relief from the horrible torment of the flame.
At some point during this process, it appears they are beaten with few or many stripes.
Finally, they are cast into the eternal lake of fire, which was prepared for Satan and his angels. This is called "the second death." There they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever. There will never be any hope of escape. There will never be any hope of release. This is the eternal destiny of most people.
What a horrible time it will be! Dying, then going to hell, then to the great white throne judgment, and finally being cast into the eternal lake of fire. During this process, people will see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but "you" yourself cast out-ref Lk 13:28. The people will be crying. There will be gnashing of teeth. This is the final destiny for all that reject the forgiveness of their sins which is ONLY possible through Jesus Christ. This is the end result for those that refuse to do the will of God. This is the end result for those that refuse to repent of all willful sin and serve the Lord.
Satan will ultimately be in the lake of fire. The false prophet and the Antichrist will be there. The rich man will be there. Many preachers, Sunday school teachers, church choir singers, and even missionaries will be there. Consider carefully. Again it needs to be said. Most people that have ever lived will be there. Only a few shall receive eternal life and forever be with the Lord.
We might say these words, 2 Cor 5:11-KNOWING THEREFORE THE TERROR OF THE LORD, WE PERSUADE MEN.

Hell is a place of consciousness-ref Lk 16:23,24; a place of DARKNESS-Mt 8:12; eternal separation from your loved ones-ref Lk 13:28; not the slightest hope of release-ref Mt 25:46. There is the torment of memory in hell. You may remember every single chance you had to repent, yet you refused-ref Lk 16:27,28.
It is written, WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE-Rev 20:15; HELL FIRE-Mt 18:9; Mk 9:47; DEVOURING FIRE-Isa 33:14; EVERLASTING FIRE-Mt 25:41; a FIRE THAT NEVER SHALL BE QUENCHED-Mk 9:43; THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE-Rev 20:10; COALS OF FIRE-Pv 25:22; UNQUENCHABLE FIRE-Mt 3:12; FURNACE OF FIRE-Mt 13:42; VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE-Jude 7; RAGING FIRE THAT WILL CONSUME THE ENEMIES OF GOD-Heb 10:27 NIV; TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE-Rev 14:10; ETERNAL JUDGMENT-Heb 6:2; EVERLASTING BURNINGS-Isa 33:14; EVERLASTING CONTEMPT-Dan 12:2; EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT-Mt 25:46; EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION-2 Thes 1:9; TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER-Rev 20:10; THEY ARE BURNED-Jn 15:6; WHERE THEIR WORM DIETH NOT, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED-Mk 9:46; THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDETH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT-Rev 14:11; SHAME-Dan 12:2; PAINS OF HELL-Ps 116:3; OUTER DARKNESS-Mt 8:12; WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH-Mt 8:12; WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH-Mt 13:42; HE LIFT UP HIS EYES, BEING IN TORMENTS-Lk 16:23; AND HE CRIED...I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME-Lk 16:24; HAVE MERCY ON ME-Lk 16:24.
This is the eternal destiny of most people.

 

[Matthew 16:24]

I am not trying to win a debate with you even though that's what it may look like. That is not by intentions, just witnessing about the whole Word of God which I believe includes Hell.

You say, "God wouldn't allow such a thing to happen." Sure He will! God allows people to suffer all the time. God allowed Hitler to murder 6,000,000 Jews, did He not? God allowed Herod to kill the children under two years old, did He not (Matthew 2)? If God will allow innocent babies to be murdered,then why wouldn't He allow a Christ rejecting sinner to burn in Hell? Did God not allow Jesus Christ, an innocent and sinless man, to be beaten and murdered? If God will allow His only begotten Son to suffer and be murdered, then why should God save a sinner from Hell when he chooses not to trust Christ as Savior? Listen, friend, GOD WILL ALLOW YOU TO GO TO HELL AND BURN IF YOU ARE NOT BORN AGAIN. It happens all the time.


How many times have I heard someone say, "A loving God wouldn't put His creatures in hell." Well I have news for you, friend, God doesn't put anyone in hell--their sins put them there. Know ye not that hell was not created for man? Hell was created for the devil and his angels--

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. (Matthew 25:41)
Men go to hell because they choose the devil's way and reject the Lord Jesus. God is holy and will not allow any sin in His kingdom. As a result, when people die in their sins they are forever banished from the presence of God to a place called hell--and it ain't pretty. Incidentally, Satan won't be ruling in the lake of fire. He'll be screamin' and hollerin' just like everybody else--

the devil...shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
Think about this...God, out of profound love for you--a vile sinner who has transgressed His commandments--let His own beautiful, dear Son be sacrificed for YOUR sins! Jesus wasn't a sinner. He didn't sin one time. He didn't die for Himself. He died for you. To save YOU. That's why He is called the Saviour. Because He SAVES from hell! If you reject His sacrifice and trod it underfoot it should not be too hard for you to understand that the same God who sacrificed His beloved Son will expeditiously cast your rebellious hind parts into hell and the lake of fire. NOTHING unclean will ever enter God's heaven--and all unregenerate people are unclean. I too was once dead in trespasses and sins, but one lovely day I turned my face to Jesus and got washed in the blood. You can too--no matter what you've done.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18
God does not want you in hell! Jesus came to save you from that horrible place! Don't lie and say God puts people in hell! Get right with Jesus and you won't go there! Look at these scriptures:

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die... (Ezekiel 33:11)

The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)

The Bible says that God loves you so much that the Creator of this universe (Jesus Christ) came to "taste death" for every man. Jesus wasn't just some baby for a manger scene. He is God come in the flesh to destroy the power of death and hell--He holds the keys, people! If you say yes to Jesus, hell won't be your final destination. If you say no to Jesus, hell will be your eternal home. There ain't no getting out and no comfort--it's everlasting.

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, hell exists and the Bible says that it is never full. I've heard folks say that hell is not mentioned in the Bible or that hell is just the grave. Well, let's take a look at what the Bible says. Here are a few scriptures that deal with hell and the lake of fire (at the final judgment, hell, death and those not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake fire):

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.

[ February 21, 2003, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Matthew 16:24 ]

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by Ken H:
So you admit you believe that God will punish for the same sin(s) twice. I submit that such a scenario would make God unjust and the Bible states that God is just.

“‘If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. Leviticus 26:18 (NIV)

Oops!

Universalist Baptists?

"Universal Salvation" proclaims that God will save all people and that everyone is going to Heaven. This belief is growing among the 'Christian' community and is based on several excerpts from the Bible. Among the key verses the belief in "Universal Salvation" rests upon are:
"-God is love." (1 John 4:8)
"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
"-who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)
If you take these as isolated statements, discounting all the other verses of the Bible, you can make the case that God will save all people. Unfortunately, "this is not true!"
Let's take a quick overview of God's history of dealings with man.
God told Adam & Eve don't eat. They ate. He banished them from the Garden.
God seeing the violence in mankind, chose Noah, the one just man of his time, and saved him, while destroying the rest in the great flood.
God disgusted with the depravity of Sodom & Gomorah's citizens saved the few righteous people and destroyed not only the cities but also ALL the unrighteous citizenry.
God saved the Israelites, captive in Egypt; promised them the "Promised Land"; they decided to worship idols; He expressed His displeasure by leading them on a 40 year Exodus in the desert until ALL those He originally brought out of Egypt had died. It was their descendants that entered the "Promised Land."
Following that, every time the Nation of Israel fell in to wide spread sinning and disregard of God, they were punished severely.

"What's the point? ", you ask. God, 'the Great I AM', is the same today, as He was yesterday, and will be tomorrow. The 'New Testament God' is the same being as the 'Old Testament God'. He has never rewarded unrighteousness, and He never will!
John 3:14, is often quoted, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son-." Let's look at this verse in context.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:14-18)

In context, you can see that John 3:14 has an entirely different meaning than some are led to believe. It thoroughly contradicts the 'everybody is going to Heaven' philosophy. Jesus had much to say about Salvation. All of which contradicts the 'Universal Salvation' mentality. Two parables are of special note: the ten servants (Luke 19:12-27) & the sower and the seed (Mark 4:1-20)

What about the verses in 1 Timothy and 2 Peter? Considering the entirety of Holy Scripture, the truth is that they pertain to God's elect; not to mankind in general. (For more information on God's elect visit The Doctrine of Election

http://acharlie.tripod.com/election.html

Consider what Jesus has to say about salvation:
Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)
"Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." (Luke 18:17)
"There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13:28)
"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire." (Mark 9:47)
" And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 14:15-16)
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelations 21-8)
"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." (Revelations 22:14-15)

It is obvious that Our Lord & Savior, the Author of Salvation, does not support this universal free-ticket to Heaven.

What do other areas of Holy Scripture have to say on the subject?

Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel: "Because you despise this word, And trust in oppression and perversity, And rely on them, Therefore this iniquity shall be to you Like a breach ready to fall, A bulge in a high wall, Whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant. And He shall break it like the breaking of the potter's vessel, Which is broken in pieces; He shall not spare." (Isaiah 30:12-14)

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21)

It is abundantly evident that Holy Scripture does not support "Universal Salvation."

[ February 21, 2003, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

[Me2]

Hello Matthew,

your preaching to the choir. Your about 25 years too late on the formal training.

I like to think that God allows those who believe in such ways to serve a purpose.

you do know that in the family of God that there are two kinds of followers..
those who live by adulterizing Grace by mixing rules and laws and judgemental attitudes.
and those who just want to rest in Christ by not worrying about any other persons pet doctrines that they seem to be following at the moment.

God says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"..sounds as though theres a consequence if you choose otherwise...
there is..its called personal conceit.

I Love Gods Plan..Because its His Way or the Highway..and why would you suppose that most that are called fail when tried. I believe, its because they cant let go of the current trendy doctrine that everybody seems to be following at the moment.

take for instance the current ones..literalizing figurative statements. Its like watching the simpsons on tv and believing what those characters do, is real, and should be taught to all.

sit still and say to yourself.
"God makes worms that cant Die".
I know he does its written right here on page....
look, here it is in the greek.....

a parable,
a proverb,
an allegory,
a vision,
a dream,

and out of all that we even find Jesus teaching in PARABLES for THREE YEARS..he said nothing other than that which was phrased in a parable.
a riddle. (to the public)

do you think he was safeguarding his message from someone intentionally.

so today we have gentiles running after jesus who was an OT jew and taking what he was intentionally saying in riddles that were meant to be heard to the OT jews ONLY in his day and age and using these FICTIONAL stories with some twisted understanding that they have a literal meaning(s)

we're gentiles and under a new covenant.
we follow the law of the spirit of Christ which is to live by the tutoring of the holy spirit. The Goal is to Love All Men and Love God.

the problems dont lie interpreting parables or visions or dark sayings..

Its understanding that God is sovereign and Man isnt.

and that what God originally Created from conception follows a strict path and conclusion.
a conclusion that proves beyond a shadow of doubt that he is love.

so if your concept of God is such that you can see him tormenting his creation...
well thats what you choose to believe.

I cant

and secondly if you wont give God the ability to administer mercy and forgiveness to anyone he chooses..even if he chooses all to be saved at the last second..
again. that is what you choose to believe.

I cant.

now if you want..we could go over each parable which contains hell in it and I will tell you the same thing..its men agonizing within themselves over following laws and rules that they choose to add to Gods FREE gift of grace. but these people are predestined to be in just those conditions as are those who enjoy the rest of Christ. a dualism within the family of God fighting against one another making each other jealous towards the things that bring Glory to God.

just like cain and abel, Esau and jacob, jews and gentiles, law and grace, spirit and flesh.

one side looks good and the other side looks bad.
its all reletive within the kingdom of God.

but to say a God of Love will torment his creation forever and ever is a tad bit harsh. so I believe.

Me2

 

[Caretaker]

Rev. 20:
10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Where the beast and the false prophet ARE, after 1000 years

Jesus paid the debt for ALL, but it is up to us to make the choice to receive Jesus, and receive the pardon.

John 3:
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


1 John 3:
22: And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23: And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


A servant of Christ,
Drew

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by Me2:
but to say a God of Love will torment his creation forever and ever is a tad bit harsh. so I believe.

And to say that the God of the Bible will not keep this promise calls God a liar!

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Mat 25:45-46 NIV)

 

[neal4christ]

Yes, there is a hell but what takes place there is remedial, much like what we suffer during this age but more severe, until all bow the knee before Jesus as their Savior and Lord.

Ahh....nothing like forced love! Boy, I guess it will be alright to beat your kids and punish them however severe to get them to love you. Yeah, right.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

Me2 keeps talking of parables, but what of Matthew 25:31-46? That is not a parable. What do you do with it?

Neal

 

[Me2]

Hi neal,

to paraphrase mat 25: 31-46..its a parable
from ch24 to ch26..its all parables

this is a judgement within the process of sanctification. between the child and young man stage we are tried. (or trial through understanding)

this could be considered the day of the lord..
(figuratively..as in everyday is the day of the lord)
but this parable is concerning failing or succeeding this trial. we inherit the kingdom..as well as join the ranks of the elect. you can now go before the father in jesus name..not like a child that still requires a high priest.

the next statement concerning the nature of those who succeed and fail this trial of faith.

1 john states expresses to children to continually love their brothers..here in mat love towards others is an earmark of the elect.

briefly mentioned those on the left hand..the dark side of love. those who have not accepted the sovereignty of God..those not accepting Jesus as lord..those not continuing in expressing Love towards their brothers. the left hand, the hand of cursings. depart from me into "everlasting punishment". (love that dont you) ITS A PARABLE...

Everlasting can be translated not as an element of time but a degree..an expression of ultimately and it is punishment. and the judge is yourself to the limit and degree. (well, you and satan)
its concerning those who have mixed their carnal reasonings,laws,works of the flesh with the finished work of Jesus...which we call Grace. Which nothing of man can be added unto it. God is there..because their his children yet along side his presents..you also have all the laws and rules and works of your own understandings..so there...thats hell.
the battle for control of your mind. Their Saved..So whats wrong. They wont stop struggling by using their carnal reasonings with the truths that God is Consistently telling his child. Even to the point of physical or mental Chastisement(ouch). but its in the life of believers..It sounds harsh with the language used but it remedial for the disobedient child to learn of Jesus sovereignty and Love.
Back to eternal or ultimate..
the law which the individuals living by. its purpose is to enlarge the knowledge of Sin. make it stand out. with the chastisement of the HS and instruction along with the Satans torment of following laws to attain Gods level of righteousness is totally exausting..It will eventually kill the power that the carnal flesh uses over the will of the believer. soon the believer will accept Jesus as the only one that can save such a person.

but to say the righteous (the elect) enters into life eternal..which is kinda true. because that begins the first day of Eternity.

but its a loop..those who fail are never denied availability to be tried again. God loves these children just the same. but there is a strict parameter that these two groups exist and operate under. one lives by grace..accepted freely.

while the other struggles within their very beliefs of who the "think" God is and how he operates. unfortunately its their flesh and satan instucting them. until the Law of God does its complete work and kills the works of the flesh. ie, dissolving the powers of Satan influence. and God can instruct the believer once again the operations of their new spirits. (which they had all along)

its temporary Neal...hopefully
parables tell NO spiritual lies...
but they can give a gentile heck when interpreted literally.

and most of the other "eternal punishments" are the same. describing the same events..with the jews then, as well as us gentiles today. the operations and parameters of the obedient and disobedient are still present. law vs grace, flesh vs spirit.

OK shoot me down..
Me2

 

[neal4christ]

to paraphrase mat 25: 31-46..its a parable

I guess to make it fit your theology it has to be.

Seriously, Jesus does not say anything is 'like' or 'as' in this section. It seems He is addressing a coming event. What makes you say it is a parable?

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

depart from me into "everlasting punishment". (love that dont you)

Why do you suggest that I love everlasting punishment? I don't, and I don't know why you would say such a thing. I just don't ignore it as you do.

Neal