Baptists who don't believe in Hell?

[KenH]

For those who think that a lack of Scriptural support for Jesus being the Savior of all men has been presented here's a whole bunch -

patriot.net/~bmcgin/universalsalvation.html

 

[Caretaker]

Those that preach universalism deny the Word of God, and teach a false doctrine. The Word says that those who reject Christ ARE condemned already. The Word says that those not found in the Lamb's Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire. There are no ifs, ands or buts. For it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement. Those that reject Christ have refused God's pardon for all who will come, and the sentence is carried out.

Rev. 20:
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God is not mocked. He paid the price. Those who reject the price, the penalty will be enfoced.


A servant of Christ,
Drew

 

[KenH]

1 Peter 4:5-6(NASB):

"but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God."

This, of course, ties in with 1 Peter 3:18-20 where it states that Jesus was put to death in the flesh but was made alive in the spirit, and how Jesus preached to those who had previously disobeyed.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Caretaker:
He paid the price. Those who reject the price, the penalty will be enfoced.

That is a false doctrine. That doctrine teaches that Jesus paid the price, but Satan gets the prize.

It is also false because it teaches that God imposes double jeopardy - an idea that even man in corrupt flesh rejects. It teaches that God is unjust - and that is a smear against the character of God and goes against what the Bible teaches.

Once a price is paid, it is paid. Period. The price cannot be paid again. Such a view makes God out to be tyrant of the worst sort.

If someone wants to hold that view, then at least be consistent and reject the doctrine of the substitutionary nature of the atonement of Christ - which is what people who teach such are in reality and practicality doing anyway. And in doing so they are rejecting Biblical doctrine because the Bible does teach the substitutionary nature of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

 

[neal4christ]

By the way, I do hope that those who oppose the idea of God saving all of His creatures distinguish between Christian universalism and Christless universalism that considers the value(or lack thereof) of all religions to be the same.

What's the difference? In the end, everyone will be okay according to both teachings.

I find it amusing that either you assume people are either radical Calvinists or Arminian, nothing in between. While I appreciate the efforts of those who endeavor in those systems, we are foolish to think we have God figured out. We don't need Him any more if we know everything about Him. And the Universalist would fall in this category as well. However, your theology is more dangerous, lulling people into eternal damnation and apostasy now. Preach that if you want, but you pick a couple of verses and harp on them and ignore the evidence as a whole.

Of course, you could just be predestined to do this so I can't really blame you.

Neal

 

[Caretaker]

2 Peter 2:
1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5: And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7: And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished :


Rev. 20: 15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


John 3:
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


The Word of God is quite clear, except to those who would deny the truth. Those that deny Christ ARE condemned already. Those that are not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life ARE cast into the Lake of Fire. The Word of God is absolutely clear on the eternal consequences of denying Christ.

Universalism is contrary ot the Word of God.

A servant of Christ,
Drew

 

[neal4christ]

Such a view makes God out to be tyrant of the worst sort.

Look who's talking!

You make God the source of sin and that He wants people to suffer and have pain, all because of some sick game He wants to play! Never mind the fact that if He is the source of sin He is no longer God because that is against His nature! Your view of God makes Him out to be some sicko who likes to just play with people and lies to them. Talk about blasphemy.

Neal

 

[John Wells]

Why has no universalist answered the monumental question I have raised? Rev 22 . . . final scene, those within the gates, and those on the outside (of God's grace). Rev 20,21, and 22 are very chronological. Have you universalists been give revelation from God beyond Rev 22? Answers please?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by John Wells:
Rev 22 . . . final scene

That's the final scene that has been revealed to us. But I don't believe everything goes into nothingness at that point - there is history to be made beyond that as there is an eternity of bliss with God awaiting His creation.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
He wants people to suffer and have pain

God allows people to suffer and have pain. He did not force Adam to eat the forbidden fruit.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Caretaker:
Universalism is contrary to the Word of God.

Eternal torture and the teaching that Jesus is not the Savior of the world are contrary to the Word of God.

But I understand that non-Calvinists have difficulty with accepting the teaching that Jesus is the Savior of the world because they add "if" man does something to make Jesus the Savior of the world.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Savior of the world - there is no qualifying statement there.

If some people want to promote the teaching of a victorious Satan who gets the prize that Jesus paid for - who gets what he wants by having God torture His own creation forever and ever and ever and ever, you have the right to do so. And you also have my sympathy. I used to be in your shoes.

 

[Frogman]

If some people want to promote the teaching of a victorious Satan who gets the prize that Jesus paid for - who gets what he wants by having God torture His own creation forever and ever and ever and ever, you have the right to do so. And you also have my sympathy. I used to be in your shoes.

 

[John Wells]

Frogman, et al,

22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.” Luke 13:22-30 (NIV)

Anyone care to explain this one away?

 

[KenH]

I notice that the non-Calvinists keep bascially repeating over and over and over "God will torture people forever. God will torture people forever, etc., etc., etc."

I do not see them dealing with the problem they have with substitutionary atonement. Maybe I was wrong and they don't believe in substitutionary atonement. But I had thought that was pretty much a cardinal Baptist doctrine even though non-Calvinistic Baptists are thoroughly inconsistent on the subject.

 

[John Wells]

Come on Ken H,

Stop the strawmen! You know very well we believe in substitutionary atonement, but for those who believe in the Atoner! Please show me in my post above how Jesus is a liar!

 

[neal4christ]

God allows people to suffer and have pain. He did not force Adam to eat the forbidden fruit.

This was not the explanation I received in the other forum from a Universalist. I was told that God wills everything and nothing happens that He does not will. Logically, if we have pain and suffering, it is because God wants it. Also, I was told that God is the source of ALL things. Thus, God must be the source of sin and evil. That is contrary to who God is, yet you seem to be sidestepping that and not 'dealing' with your problem!

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Savior of the world - there is no qualifying statement there.

Ahh...I see....so the statements that say those who have the Son have life are really not saying that. Okay, it is all clear now. Come on, give me a break. Are you really saying that all the calls to repentance are just a big joke? And Romans 10:9 is a lie since there is a conditional statement there? Why were the apostles so fervent in spreading the gospel of Christ if it really is not that big of a deal, since everyone will be saved. Your theology definitely fits in with the postmodernist worldview of today.

Ken, please tell me what type of a Baptist church you go to. I am very interested in that.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

I do not see them dealing with the problem they have with substitutionary atonement.

This coming from someone who ignores plain statements throughout Scripture and bends over backwards to make his theology work!

Why is it always assumed that one is either Calvinist or Arminian? Weren't they both just fallible men? Why do we have to believe exactly what they believe? If you aren't Calvinist, you are assumed to deny God's sovereignty. If you aren't Arminian, you are assumed to believe that God has just made us robots and is cruel. Come on guys, stop trying to categorize everyone!

Neal

Edit: I would like to add that I don't see the Universalists dealing much with Scripture that opposes their view, rather they seem to post their feelings and their thinking as God's thinking.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by John Wells:
Please show me in my post above how Jesus is a liar!

Jesus is not a liar.

Jesus, in the passage you cite, is not contradicting what He and the Bible say elsewhere. John 12:32 does not state “If I be lifted up, I will draw only a few people to Myself” , but that He will draw all. 1 Corinthians 15:22 does not state “In Adam all die; in Christ only a few will be made alive” but that all will be made alive in Christ.

In the passage you cite, Jesus is talking about those in this age who will submit to His rulership and be laborers in His world-harvest vineyard. Those that refuse to submit to Jesus in this age will be cast into outer darkness, the lake of fire, for a season until they do submit to the rulership of Jesus. There is nothing said about eternity in the passage you cite - simply that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth - and I believe what Jesus said.

And in this passage, Jesus ends with a very optimistic message, "And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God."

And behold the salvation of all mentioned in Revelation 5:13: And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

It certainly doesn't sound like the Holy Spirit is describing anyone as suffering torture at this point.

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by Ken H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Wells:
Rev 22 . . . final scene

That's the final scene that has been revealed to us. But I don't believe everything goes into nothingness at that point - there is history to be made beyond that as there is an eternity of bliss with God awaiting His creation. </font>[/QUOTE]An the history beyond that point? I suppose you have a warm fuzzy feeling about it? This argument is getting very lame!