Baptizing Babies

Hi 3AngelsMom,

You asked, "Where does that say that BABIES are carrying the sin of Adam?".

Paul specifically mentions "babies" as much as he specifically mentions "elderly people":

"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."

You wrote, "That means that UNTIL someone KNOWS the law, NOTHING they do is sin. They are still Spiritually alive until they sin willfully."

So, basically, you're saying that we are born into this world with the indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity in our souls and when we make our first sin, oh, around the age of 5, we lose that indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity?

And then, when we re-receive this indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity once again, we can't lose it after that?

Do you see how your theology is contradictory?

God bless,

Carson

 

But you are saying that one still has to fall into that actual sin. So a baby or child who has yet to fall into sin and has not sinned...why would that child need a savior?

God bless,

Grant

 

Hi 3AngelsMom,

You wrote, "The idea of original sin is that of imputing the sin of Adam and Eve upon every person that is conceived."

No, that's not what it is. The "stain of Original Sin" is not an actual stain or mark on our soul. It isn't an "x" on our record.

Original Sin is the privation of grace in our souls, the privation of the indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity in our souls.

When Adam sinned, he forefeited this grace through his sin, and so his descendents were born without this presence of grace in the soul.

Also, think about it, you're basically saying that everyone is Immaculately Conceived. Catholics teach that only Mary was Immaculately Conceived, and now you're teaching that everyone is conceived without sin.

That's really interesting.

God bless,

Carson

 

Hi Curtis,

The verse says, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name." (Acts 22:16)

And you wrote, "It looks to me like the sins are washed away by calling on his name, and the baptism is a symbolic act."

And what do you think happens in baptism?

"I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"

Bro, "Calling on his name" is part of baptism!

You wrote, "And thank you, in advance, for agreeing with me that Luke wrote the Acts of the Apostles."

Why would I disagree with you? Have I disagreed with you?

God bless,

Carson

 

My Dad and I once had a bitter argument about who wrote Acts.

You asked what Baptism does, in my opinion.

It is God's will for Christians to be Baptized, but I do not believe the act plays any part in salvation. It is God's will for us to do a lot of things, but they have nothing to do with salvation.

Baptism is a public display of one's decision to follow Christ. Babies can't make the decision, so ipso/facto, should't be baptized.

 

I agree Bro. Curtis.

And also, heres some food for thought; a baby who was born, and then died in the hospital 2 hours later, .....don't you think it goes to heaven?

It was not baptized. Where do those of you who say baptize your babies; say it goes?

I say it went to the Lord.

Sherrie

 

Hi Curtis,

You wrote, "My Dad and I once had a bitter argument about who wrote Acts."

Who's your daddy? Not me, I'm certain of it.

I also see that you have dropped the "washing away" issue. Good.

Now, when people say, "Baptism washes away sin", you can say, "Oh, yes, that's true, because that's what Scripture says in Luke 22:16, 'Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'".

Also, notice the context of this verse. It is of Anani'as speaking to Paul in Damascus after Paul's conversion experience on the road to Damascus!

You wrote, "Baptism is a public display of one's decision to follow Christ."

Where does Scripture say this?

Paul says that it is in baptism that we are united to Christ's death:

"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

Paul does not say that baptism a symbol that is simply a public display of one's decision to follow Christ.

God bless,

Carson

[ January 30, 2003, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Hi again, It is clearly Paul who is called upon to "call on Jesus' name" here, in the context of his own baptism. But you are right, this public confession of faith is a vital part of baptism. We are saved by believing in Jesus, confessing with our mouth, by faith, confession and repentance. All things week old babies cannot do. All teaching about salvation in the NT is that it is an act of faith, belief, confession. You practice a salvation that requires none of this. You teach salvation by ritual, a concept utterly hostile to the gospel of Jesus.
Take care, Colin

 

I respond: HUH?!?!

Col 2:11-12 has NOTHING TO DO WITH BAPTISM!
Circumcision symbolized man's need for cleansing of the heart. And the outward sign of that cleansing of sin that comes by faith in Christ. (Roman 4:11 & Phil 3:3) At salvation belivers undergo a spiritual circumcstion by puting off the body of sin and the flesh.
this passage has NOTHING TO DO WITH BAPTISM...

 

Hi 3AngelsMom,

You wrote, "Mary was immaculately conceived means that she was made without sin? I always thought that meant she was conceived without a man being involved."

Yes, I know, terms can get very confusing, and we all can get confused because of that. Hopefully, our dialogue will help one another understand our respective thoughts, actual beliefs, and reasons for believing so.

The dogma Immaculate Conception is essentially that God gave Mary his indwelling presence at the moment of conception, whereas we are given this life of God in baptism.

What was he doing with grace, if there was no sin in the world?

When I say "grace" in this context, I mean "God's indwelling life in the soul", which is specifically "sanctifying grace" because it is what makes us holy. This grace sanctifies our soul as God indwells it.

When a baby is born, they are pure, with out spot or blemish, innocent of ANY sin, but have the nature and tendency to sin.

I would say that they are without personal sin (which is how you are defining sin), but the lack of God's indwelling presence still remains. They are not born with God's indwelling presence in their souls. And, this presence is necessary for one to go to heaven.

What is your understanding of the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law? Mine is that you cannot keep the spirit if you are breaking the letter.

The Letter of the Law is the written law on tablets. In the New Covenant, we are given the Holy Spirit so that we can not only keep the law, but rise far above it into previously unknown hights of sanctity.

God bless,

Carson

 

Hello Carson,

Ok so now we are giving sins different names? Sin is sin Carson. You either sinned or you didn't. The only sin that is different is blasphmy against the Holy Spirit.

There is no such thing as personal sin and sin. sin is a rebellous act against God. A disobedience. Whether you know it at the time or after the fact. It is still sin.

Sherrie

[ January 30, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Sherrie ]

 

I am still trying to figure out how intelligence plays into the whole scheme of things. Particularly since Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil we are born with the knowledge of good and evil.

 

3AngelsMom said:

What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????????????

What kind of doctrine are you reading???????????

That is a load of false babble!

Sherrie

 

It is God's will for Christians to be Baptized, but I do not believe the act plays any part in salvation. It is God's will for us to do a lot of things, but they have nothing to do with salvation.

Yep, I couldn't agree more.

Alas, it seems this thread is getting way off the original topic, what with the topic of original sin, etc etc etc. Oh well, I posted biblical support for baby baptism early on, and it had nothing to do with original sin, so I still assert that baby baprism, while not required, is a biblically acceptible practice.

 

Hi John,
Baptism does not save, but it is an outward proclaimation that a person has been saved. It always follows salvation (see for one eg, Acts 8:36-39). Paul teaches in Romans 6 that baptism represents our dying to self, and being raised to new life in Jesus. As such, the act is a public proclaimation of the gospel. Now, in infant baptism, does the baby die to self? Or is it killed by others for its own good? The baby has made no decision to follow Jesus, expressed no faith, belief, repentance, etc. On what basis do you consider it a fit subject for baptism? Remember that the New Covenant is a personal covenant (Jeremiah 31) where God is personally known by each individual. In baptising a baby, are you proclaiming that the baby already personally knows Jesus, and has accepted him as their saviour? If not, what are you proclaiming?

Seeing my 17 year old daughter publicly confess her faith in Jesus, and follow him in obedience to his command into the waters of baptism was one of the highlights of my life. I would not have robbed her of the chance to personally follow the commands of Jesus for anything. You tell a child that this is a command that has already been performed on their behalf, without their knowledge or concent, and so rob them of that moment when they publicly declare that they indeed have died to self, accept Jesus as Lord, and follow his command re baptism. Dropping water on a crying baby does not proclaim the gospel.
Take care, Colin