3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Are there people who think it was someone else?
That's wacky.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Baptizing Babies
- Thread starter 3AngelsMom
- Start date
That's wacky.
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
You are born with a sin nature NOT a sin record.
The idea of original sin is that of imputing the sin of Adam and Eve upon every person that is conceived.
You can fall, and will fall into sin, due to the nature. But at birth you do not yet have sin record.
Read the verses I post. They are pretty clear.
God Bless.
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi 3AngelsMom,
You asked, "Where does that say that BABIES are carrying the sin of Adam?".
Paul specifically mentions "babies" as much as he specifically mentions "elderly people":
"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."
You wrote, "That means that UNTIL someone KNOWS the law, NOTHING they do is sin. They are still Spiritually alive until they sin willfully."
So, basically, you're saying that we are born into this world with the indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity in our souls and when we make our first sin, oh, around the age of 5, we lose that indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity?
And then, when we re-receive this indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity once again, we can't lose it after that?
Do you see how your theology is contradictory?
God bless,
Carson
You asked, "Where does that say that BABIES are carrying the sin of Adam?".
Paul specifically mentions "babies" as much as he specifically mentions "elderly people":
"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."
You wrote, "That means that UNTIL someone KNOWS the law, NOTHING they do is sin. They are still Spiritually alive until they sin willfully."
So, basically, you're saying that we are born into this world with the indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity in our souls and when we make our first sin, oh, around the age of 5, we lose that indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity?
And then, when we re-receive this indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity once again, we can't lose it after that?
Do you see how your theology is contradictory?
God bless,
Carson
GraceSaves
New Member
But you are saying that one still has to fall into that actual sin. So a baby or child who has yet to fall into sin and has not sinned...why would that child need a savior?
God bless,
Grant
God bless,
Grant
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi 3AngelsMom,
You wrote, "The idea of original sin is that of imputing the sin of Adam and Eve upon every person that is conceived."
No, that's not what it is. The "stain of Original Sin" is not an actual stain or mark on our soul. It isn't an "x" on our record.
Original Sin is the privation of grace in our souls, the privation of the indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity in our souls.
When Adam sinned, he forefeited this grace through his sin, and so his descendents were born without this presence of grace in the soul.
Also, think about it, you're basically saying that everyone is Immaculately Conceived. Catholics teach that only Mary was Immaculately Conceived, and now you're teaching that everyone is conceived without sin.
That's really interesting.
God bless,
Carson
You wrote, "The idea of original sin is that of imputing the sin of Adam and Eve upon every person that is conceived."
No, that's not what it is. The "stain of Original Sin" is not an actual stain or mark on our soul. It isn't an "x" on our record.
Original Sin is the privation of grace in our souls, the privation of the indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity in our souls.
When Adam sinned, he forefeited this grace through his sin, and so his descendents were born without this presence of grace in the soul.
Also, think about it, you're basically saying that everyone is Immaculately Conceived. Catholics teach that only Mary was Immaculately Conceived, and now you're teaching that everyone is conceived without sin.
That's really interesting.
God bless,
Carson
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi Curtis,
The verse says, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name." (Acts 22:16)
And you wrote, "It looks to me like the sins are washed away by calling on his name, and the baptism is a symbolic act."
And what do you think happens in baptism?
"I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"
Bro, "Calling on his name" is part of baptism!
You wrote, "And thank you, in advance, for agreeing with me that Luke wrote the Acts of the Apostles."
Why would I disagree with you? Have I disagreed with you?
God bless,
Carson
The verse says, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name." (Acts 22:16)
And you wrote, "It looks to me like the sins are washed away by calling on his name, and the baptism is a symbolic act."
And what do you think happens in baptism?
"I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"
Bro, "Calling on his name" is part of baptism!
You wrote, "And thank you, in advance, for agreeing with me that Luke wrote the Acts of the Apostles."
Why would I disagree with you? Have I disagreed with you?
God bless,
Carson
My Dad and I once had a bitter argument about who wrote Acts.
You asked what Baptism does, in my opinion.
It is God's will for Christians to be Baptized, but I do not believe the act plays any part in salvation. It is God's will for us to do a lot of things, but they have nothing to do with salvation.
Baptism is a public display of one's decision to follow Christ. Babies can't make the decision, so ipso/facto, should't be baptized.
You asked what Baptism does, in my opinion.
It is God's will for Christians to be Baptized, but I do not believe the act plays any part in salvation. It is God's will for us to do a lot of things, but they have nothing to do with salvation.
Baptism is a public display of one's decision to follow Christ. Babies can't make the decision, so ipso/facto, should't be baptized.
I agree Bro. Curtis.
And also, heres some food for thought; a baby who was born, and then died in the hospital 2 hours later, .....don't you think it goes to heaven?
It was not baptized. Where do those of you who say baptize your babies; say it goes?
I say it went to the Lord.
Sherrie
And also, heres some food for thought; a baby who was born, and then died in the hospital 2 hours later, .....don't you think it goes to heaven?
It was not baptized. Where do those of you who say baptize your babies; say it goes?
I say it went to the Lord.
Sherrie
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi Curtis,
You wrote, "My Dad and I once had a bitter argument about who wrote Acts."
Who's your daddy? Not me, I'm certain of it.
I also see that you have dropped the "washing away" issue. Good.
Now, when people say, "Baptism washes away sin", you can say, "Oh, yes, that's true, because that's what Scripture says in Luke 22:16, 'Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'".
Also, notice the context of this verse. It is of Anani'as speaking to Paul in Damascus after Paul's conversion experience on the road to Damascus!
You wrote, "Baptism is a public display of one's decision to follow Christ."
Where does Scripture say this?
Paul says that it is in baptism that we are united to Christ's death:
"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."
Paul does not say that baptism a symbol that is simply a public display of one's decision to follow Christ.
God bless,
Carson
[ January 30, 2003, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
You wrote, "My Dad and I once had a bitter argument about who wrote Acts."
Who's your daddy? Not me, I'm certain of it.
I also see that you have dropped the "washing away" issue. Good.
Now, when people say, "Baptism washes away sin", you can say, "Oh, yes, that's true, because that's what Scripture says in Luke 22:16, 'Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'".
Also, notice the context of this verse. It is of Anani'as speaking to Paul in Damascus after Paul's conversion experience on the road to Damascus!
You wrote, "Baptism is a public display of one's decision to follow Christ."
Where does Scripture say this?
Paul says that it is in baptism that we are united to Christ's death:
"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."
Paul does not say that baptism a symbol that is simply a public display of one's decision to follow Christ.
God bless,
Carson
[ January 30, 2003, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
Australian Baptist Student
New Member
Hi again, It is clearly Paul who is called upon to "call on Jesus' name" here, in the context of his own baptism. But you are right, this public confession of faith is a vital part of baptism. We are saved by believing in Jesus, confessing with our mouth, by faith, confession and repentance. All things week old babies cannot do. All teaching about salvation in the NT is that it is an act of faith, belief, confession. You practice a salvation that requires none of this. You teach salvation by ritual, a concept utterly hostile to the gospel of Jesus.
Take care, Colin
C.R. Gordon
New Member
I respond: HUH?!?!
Col 2:11-12 has NOTHING TO DO WITH BAPTISM!
Circumcision symbolized man's need for cleansing of the heart. And the outward sign of that cleansing of sin that comes by faith in Christ. (Roman 4:11 & Phil 3:3) At salvation belivers undergo a spiritual circumcstion by puting off the body of sin and the flesh.
this passage has NOTHING TO DO WITH BAPTISM...
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
I did not say that at all.
If we DO NOT have the Holy Spirit in us at birth then WHAT event is it that makes us 'dead' that Paul was talking about? I in no way even implied that when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Salvation, that it can never be lost. On the contrary, you can make the Holy Spirit leave if you greave Him with sin.
There is no contradiction in the literal interpretation of that passage. We are not born with a sin record, we are born with a sin nature. The nature will take it's toll and we will sin. However I do not agree that a 5 year old has an adequate grasp of the laws of God, and can sin willfully. It is usually around the ages of 10-12 (depending on the sex) that a child fully understands the law and the weight of sin. Paul makes it clear that HE did not know sin until he knew the law. At what point this was, he does not say, but it was NOT at birth.
That passage you quoted does not say that 'sin reigned from Adam to Moses' but rather DEATH reigned. Death passes upon all men, for all have sinned. Not because Adam sinned. It is very clear right there in the text that it is one's OWN sin that causes the death, not Adam's sin. It even says that 'death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam'. DEATH reigned even over those who did not sin LIKE Adam. DEATH reigned.
God Bless.
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Mary was immaculately conceived means that she was made without sin? I always thought that meant she was conceived without a man being involved. interesting.Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi 3AngelsMom,
You wrote, "The idea of original sin is that of imputing the sin of Adam and Eve upon every person that is conceived."
No, that's not what it is. The "stain of Original Sin" is not an actual stain or mark on our soul. It isn't an "x" on our record.
Original Sin is the privation of grace in our souls, the privation of the indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity in our souls.
When Adam sinned, he forefeited this grace through his sin, and so his descendents were born without this presence of grace in the soul.
Also, think about it, you're basically saying that everyone is Immaculately Conceived. Catholics teach that only Mary was Immaculately Conceived, and now you're teaching that everyone is conceived without sin.
That's really interesting.
God bless,
Carson
N
NE, (and that means Mary too) is born with sin already on their record. When Adam and Eve sinned, they did not 'forfeit their grace'. What was he doing with grace, if there was no sin in the world? That doesn't really make sense. When a baby is born, they are pure, with out spot or blemish, innocent of ANY sin, but have the nature and tendency to sin.
What is your understanding of the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law? Mine is that you cannot keep the spirit if you are breaking the letter.
Babies know neither. The actual BIBLICAL definition of sin is 'knowing to do good, and doing it not', or 'knowing the law, and disobeying it anyway'. A baby knows neither. They are without sin.
Call it what you will. The only problem you might have with this idea is that if Paul is right, (and, well, he is!) then there was nothing special about Mary's 'immaculate conception'.
A baby is born with the predisposition to sin. But now matter how many fits they throw, or how many times they don't share, how many times they hit or kick, they are STILL not sinning, until they KNOW that it is sin.
I have 3 little sisters, they are 20, 16, and 11. I also have 3 little boys, who are 7,6,and 5. My 11 year old sister does not understand the concept of sin, or the law, or grace. She is in no danger. She has ADHD and a strange form of epilepsy. Now, my 7 year old will tell you if you ask him 'what makes Jesus sad' and he will say 'when we disobey Him' and if you say 'why does it make Him sad?' he will say 'because He died for us and our sin, and it is like we are spitting on Him when we do bad stuff'.
So I would say that my 7 year old son (who is exceptionally intelligent, and is at 5th grade reading level in the best public elementary school in the US) truly has a grasp on the concept of Grace and his sin if willful (if he knows if it is sin), is then counted as sin.
We are actually studying with him right now, about salvation and he has already shown an interest in believers baptism.
Now you take my aunt, she has had 7 miscarriages. Now unless you want to say that an unborn baby is not a child, according to this doctrine all of her SINLESS, unborn children will burn?????
And we wonder why so many people have a problem reconciling God as being a loving God.
Give God more credit than that!
God Bless.
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi 3AngelsMom,
You wrote, "Mary was immaculately conceived means that she was made without sin? I always thought that meant she was conceived without a man being involved."
Yes, I know, terms can get very confusing, and we all can get confused because of that. Hopefully, our dialogue will help one another understand our respective thoughts, actual beliefs, and reasons for believing so.
The dogma Immaculate Conception is essentially that God gave Mary his indwelling presence at the moment of conception, whereas we are given this life of God in baptism.
What was he doing with grace, if there was no sin in the world?
When I say "grace" in this context, I mean "God's indwelling life in the soul", which is specifically "sanctifying grace" because it is what makes us holy. This grace sanctifies our soul as God indwells it.
When a baby is born, they are pure, with out spot or blemish, innocent of ANY sin, but have the nature and tendency to sin.
I would say that they are without personal sin (which is how you are defining sin), but the lack of God's indwelling presence still remains. They are not born with God's indwelling presence in their souls. And, this presence is necessary for one to go to heaven.
What is your understanding of the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law? Mine is that you cannot keep the spirit if you are breaking the letter.
The Letter of the Law is the written law on tablets. In the New Covenant, we are given the Holy Spirit so that we can not only keep the law, but rise far above it into previously unknown hights of sanctity.
God bless,
Carson
You wrote, "Mary was immaculately conceived means that she was made without sin? I always thought that meant she was conceived without a man being involved."
Yes, I know, terms can get very confusing, and we all can get confused because of that. Hopefully, our dialogue will help one another understand our respective thoughts, actual beliefs, and reasons for believing so.
The dogma Immaculate Conception is essentially that God gave Mary his indwelling presence at the moment of conception, whereas we are given this life of God in baptism.
What was he doing with grace, if there was no sin in the world?
When I say "grace" in this context, I mean "God's indwelling life in the soul", which is specifically "sanctifying grace" because it is what makes us holy. This grace sanctifies our soul as God indwells it.
When a baby is born, they are pure, with out spot or blemish, innocent of ANY sin, but have the nature and tendency to sin.
I would say that they are without personal sin (which is how you are defining sin), but the lack of God's indwelling presence still remains. They are not born with God's indwelling presence in their souls. And, this presence is necessary for one to go to heaven.
What is your understanding of the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law? Mine is that you cannot keep the spirit if you are breaking the letter.
The Letter of the Law is the written law on tablets. In the New Covenant, we are given the Holy Spirit so that we can not only keep the law, but rise far above it into previously unknown hights of sanctity.
God bless,
Carson
Hello Carson,
Ok so now we are giving sins different names? Sin is sin Carson. You either sinned or you didn't. The only sin that is different is blasphmy against the Holy Spirit.
There is no such thing as personal sin and sin. sin is a rebellous act against God. A disobedience. Whether you know it at the time or after the fact. It is still sin.
Sherrie
[ January 30, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Sherrie ]
Ok so now we are giving sins different names? Sin is sin Carson. You either sinned or you didn't. The only sin that is different is blasphmy against the Holy Spirit.
There is no such thing as personal sin and sin. sin is a rebellous act against God. A disobedience. Whether you know it at the time or after the fact. It is still sin.
Sherrie
[ January 30, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Sherrie ]
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
Ok, so then even if that is the case, if all Catholic babies are baptized right after they are born, what makes it so special in Mary?
Do you know the Hebrew word for this "indwelling life"?
Again, would you please explain what Paul is talking about when He said 'Sin came and I died'. (in those Galatians passages I posted)
Wow, good description. I have always known the New Covenant to be 'God will write His laws in your heart'. Under the Old Coventant there were written laws on STONE. Stone vs heart. God made the law a personal thing for us. That we could have it IN our heart. I actually did a study once on the similarities in the Bible in the statements made about the law, and of God. If your interested I could post it in here. It is pretty cool.
Was there ever a doctrine that said that Mary was conceived of the Holy Spirit like Jesus? I could have sworn I heard that somewhere.
God Bless
It is God's will for Christians to be Baptized, but I do not believe the act plays any part in salvation. It is God's will for us to do a lot of things, but they have nothing to do with salvation.
Yep, I couldn't agree more.
Alas, it seems this thread is getting way off the original topic, what with the topic of original sin, etc etc etc. Oh well, I posted biblical support for baby baptism early on, and it had nothing to do with original sin, so I still assert that baby baprism, while not required, is a biblically acceptible practice.
Yep, I couldn't agree more.
Alas, it seems this thread is getting way off the original topic, what with the topic of original sin, etc etc etc. Oh well, I posted biblical support for baby baptism early on, and it had nothing to do with original sin, so I still assert that baby baprism, while not required, is a biblically acceptible practice.
Australian Baptist Student
New Member
Hi John,
Baptism does not save, but it is an outward proclaimation that a person has been saved. It always follows salvation (see for one eg, Acts 8:36-39). Paul teaches in Romans 6 that baptism represents our dying to self, and being raised to new life in Jesus. As such, the act is a public proclaimation of the gospel. Now, in infant baptism, does the baby die to self? Or is it killed by others for its own good? The baby has made no decision to follow Jesus, expressed no faith, belief, repentance, etc. On what basis do you consider it a fit subject for baptism? Remember that the New Covenant is a personal covenant (Jeremiah 31) where God is personally known by each individual. In baptising a baby, are you proclaiming that the baby already personally knows Jesus, and has accepted him as their saviour? If not, what are you proclaiming?
Seeing my 17 year old daughter publicly confess her faith in Jesus, and follow him in obedience to his command into the waters of baptism was one of the highlights of my life. I would not have robbed her of the chance to personally follow the commands of Jesus for anything. You tell a child that this is a command that has already been performed on their behalf, without their knowledge or concent, and so rob them of that moment when they publicly declare that they indeed have died to self, accept Jesus as Lord, and follow his command re baptism. Dropping water on a crying baby does not proclaim the gospel.
Take care, Colin