Basic question: Are Baptists Protestant?

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Way, way ...

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

And by the way:

"We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the Reformation, we were reformers before Luther or Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the very days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel underground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor, I believe, any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer; as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with Government, and we will never make the Church, the despot over the consciences of men."

-- Charles H. Spurgeon​

 

[Rippon]

As Baptists we are spiritual heirs of the Protestant Reformation. We are Protestants,despite protests to the contrary! ;-)

Here are some scholars/historians who say we are indeed Protestants. Among them are Calvinists and non-Calvinists (in no particular order).
Jim Renihan, Michael Haykin, James E.M. McGoldrick, Nathan Finn, W. Morgan Patterson, Leon McBeth, James Leo Garrett, Henry Vedder, Thomas Armitage, William Lumpkin, David Benedict, Gerald Priest, Walter B. Shurden, Joseph Ivimey, William Cathart, Chris Traffanstedt, and Timothy George.

"After all, there is a Protestantism still worth contending for, there is a Calvinism still worth proclaiming, and a gospel well worth dying for." Charles H. Spurgeon in a sermon:"The church as she should be."

It's interesting that though he was a staunch Baptist --he defined himself first as a Protestant and a Calvinist. For C.H.S. it was inarguable that Baptists are Protestants.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It's interesting that though he was a staunch Baptist --he defined himself first as a Protestant and a Calvinist. For C.H.S. it was inarguable that Baptists are Protestants.

One, your quote doesn't pertain to Baptists, therefore it does not deny the quote I posted. You seem to think he lied when he said he spoke in my quote.

Two, you're wrong. He first considered himself a Christian, a disciple of Christ.

 

[AVL1984]

I've NEVER believed the Baptists to be "PROTESTANT", because there was nothing to protest but the rule of Rome as a government, not in religion. Christians were coming from all walks of life and countries then and Rome had in no way been set up as the center of Christianity, even according to Christ. He had set it up in Jerusalem. He sent the Disciples back there first. This is just a quick answer, but I will try to be more thorough in another response. Doing ten things at once right at this minute.

Blessings on you

Brother T

 

[Rippon]

One, your quote doesn't pertain to Baptists, therefore it does not deny the quote I posted.

I don't want to burst your bubble,but in my prior post I took no notice of yours. I had just found the C.H.S. quote and thought it was applicable to this thread.

Since Spurgeon was a very prominent Baptist it does indeed have relevance to this thread.

Though he was a strong Baptist it was not the thrust of his primary idea --that true Christians are Protestants,Calvinism is to be proclaimed, and the gospel is a duty worthy of our death if need be.

 

[West Kentucky Baptist]

Charles Hadden Spurgeon DID NOT believe the Baptists originated in the Protestant Reformation!

"We are the old apostolic Church … we, known among men, in all ages, by various names, such as Donatists, Novations, Paulicians, Petrobrussians, Cathari, Arnoldists, Hussities, Waldenses, Lollards, and Anabaptists, have . . . an unbroken line which comes legitimately from the apostles" (Charles Spurgeon in New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 7, p. 613)

That quote settles the issue. There is no denying Spurgeon believed in Baptist perpetuity!

Sometimes the old English Baptists used the word "Protestant" much as we use the word "evangelical" today. Yet the old English and American Baptists believed the Baptists were descended from the Anabaptists, the Waldenses, etc.

 

[Rippon]

Charles Hadden Spurgeon DID NOT believe the Baptists originated in the Protestant Reformation!

You are correct. Spurgeon incorrectly believed in Baptist perpetuity of sorts.

Sometimes the old English Baptists used the word "Protestant" much as we use the word "evangelical" today. Yet the old English and American Baptists believed the Baptists were descended from the Anabaptists, the Waldenses, etc.

No, and no.

Here are some snips by C.H.S.

Sermon :"Baptismal Regeneration" in 1864. Here he railed against the Church of England's practice:"...most atrocious -- that in a Protestant Church there should be found those who swear that baptism saves the soul."

Sermon :"The saints heritage and watchword" (11/5/54) "Our glorious Protestantism."

Sermon : "Faith in Christ" (5/8/77) "the heart and essence of Protestantism."

Sermon : "Free grace" : "Justification by faith is the one doctrine upon which all Protestantism turns!"

Sermon: "Railings" :"Family religion was the strength of Protestantism at first."

Sermon: "Very singular" Here CHS contended that some are Protestants in name only..."were they questioned as to what it is that was protested against by the Reformers, they would guess wide of the mark."

Sermon : "How the lambs feed" :"Protestantism grew in this land when there was much simple, plain, orthodox teaching on the Doctrines which are assuredly believed among us. Catechism was the very bulwark of Protestantism."

Sermon : "Hearken and Look --or encouragement for believers" (4/27/81) : "Look again at the triumph of Protestantism in this country...Let the days of the Puritans, the palmy days when God was known in England, tell how thoroughly Bible Truths won the victory!"

So no, Protestantism does not = Evangelicalism. It is a recognition of true biblical Christianity vs. the distortions of the same by Roman Catholicism. Spurgeon and his forebears understood and held to the main body of Reformational beliefs. And that in turn was handed down to the Puritans.

 

[West Kentucky Baptist]

Rippon,

Your quotes from Spurgeon only prove my point. Some Baptists in the 17th-19th century used the word "Protestant" in the theological / doctrinal sense. That's what Spurgeon is doing in those quotes. In our day "reformed" now has this meaning. When people ask, "Are Baptists Reformed" - they mean: do Baptists hold to reformed doctrine.

The difference is today when people ask "Are Baptists Protestant?" - they are using the word in the historic sense. They are not talking about doctrine, but history. They are asking: Did Baptists arise out of the Protestant Reformation.

As to my second point - the old English and American Baptists believed the Baptists were descended from the Anabaptists, the Waldenses, etc.

That is undeniable. Quotes can be provided from all over the place. Can you even show one pre-William Whitsitt quote where any early Baptist believed the Baptists originated out of the Puritans or Protestant Reformation?

 

[Rippon]

the old English and American Baptists believed the Baptists were descended from the Anabaptists, the Waldenses, etc.

That is undeniable. Quotes can be provided from all over the place. Can you even show one pre-William Whitsitt quote where any early Baptist believed the Baptists originated out of the Puritans or Protestant Reformation?

Leon McBeth, who died slightly more than one year put out a pamphlet called "Baptist Beginnings." I will cite some snips:

"...the historical evidence clearly states that Baptists originated, as a distinct denomination, in the early seventeenth century.
--Some...find it difficult to face up to historical facts about Baptist origins. Some have even erected elaborate schemes, or 'Trails of Blood,' seeking to trace Baptists through all the centuries from Christ to the present. These theories are based upon assumptions, unreliable or nonexistent historical data, or faulty interpretation of Jesus' promise that the gates of death should never prevail against his church."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Leon McBeth, who died slightly more than one year put out a pamphlet called "Baptist Beginnings." I will cite some snips:

"...the historical evidence clearly states that Baptists originated, as a distinct denomination, in the early seventeenth century.
--Some...find it difficult to face up to historical facts about Baptist origins. Some have even erected elaborate schemes, or 'Trails of Blood,' seeking to trace Baptists through all the centuries from Christ to the present. These theories are based upon assumptions, unreliable or nonexistent historical data, or faulty interpretation of Jesus' promise that the gates of death should never prevail against his church."

Are you including Primitive Baptists & that type of Old School Society in your evaluation (because they would strongly object to that categorization)? If so, note that I don't want to be affiliated with Catholics or Protestants (realizing that the main objective was to reform the RC Church). But if this is the stance, then I would just designate myself as Christian & leave it at that.

 

[Rippon]

Are you including Primitive Baptists & that type of Old School Society in your evaluation (because they would strongly object to that categorization)?

Baptists period.

If so, note that I don't want to be affiliated with Catholics or Protestants (realizing that the main objective was to reform the RC Church).

Come on, you have to know Church history better than that! The Reformers certainly DID NOT set out to reform the Roman Catholic Church. Where do you get your crazy ideas?

Protestants at the time of the Reformation were outside the body of the Roman Catholic communion...hence the term Protestant. Does it begin to click now?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Baptists period.

Come on, you have to know Church history better than that! The Reformers certainly DID NOT set out to reform the Roman Catholic Church. Where do you get your crazy ideas?

Protestants at the time of the Reformation were outside the body of the Roman Catholic communion...hence the term Protestant. Does it begin to click now?

Why, do you think I care ...... well I got it from Presbyterians & I got it from Lutherans...... both trying to convince me that they were merely a church in transition......so there is your answer. Do I believe them....well thats another matter. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Boise State University: The Reformationhttp://europeanhistory.boisestate.edu/westciv/reformat/intro.shtmlhttp://europeanhistory.boisestate.edu/westciv/reformat/intro.shtml

As the word implies, those who led the movement did not intend to create new churches separate from the Roman Catholic Church, but rather intended to reform the one true Church, the whole of Christianity. Within the first generation, however, many reformers concluded that the only hope for reform was to create a separate church and either persuade or coerce the Catholics to join.

The Free Dictionary: "Reformation"http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reformationhttp://www.thefreedictionary.com/reformation

A 16th-century movement in Western Europe that aimed at reforming some doctrines and practices of the Roman Catholic Church and resulted in the establishment of the Protestant churches.

THE REFORMATION: Europe's Search For Stabilityhttp://history-world.org/reformation_and_counter_reformat.htmhttp://history-world.org/reformation_and_counter_reformat.htm

Martin Luther claimed that what distinguished him from previous reformers was that while they attacked corruption in the life of the church; he went to the theological root of the problem--the perversion of the church's doctrine of redemption and grace. Luther, a pastor and professor at the University of Wittenberg, deplored the entanglement of God's free gift of grace in a complex system of indulgences and good works. In his Ninety-five Theses, he attacked the indulgence system, insisting that the pope had no authority over purgatory and that the doctrine of the merits of the saints had no foundation in the gospel. Here lay the key to Luther's concerns for the ethical and theological reform of the church: Scripture alone is authoritative (sola sciptura) and justification is by faith (sola fide), not by works. While he did not intend to break with the Catholic Church, a confrontation with the papacy was not long in coming. In 1521, Luther was tried before the Imperial Diet of Worms and was eventually excommunicated; what began, as an internal reform movement had become a fracture in western Christendom.

I got more if anyone wants to argue the Reformation was undertaken not to reform the old church (which is, after all, why it is called the Reformation ), but wants to insist incorrectly it was intent on forming a new one. Obviously not.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

does it even begin to penetrate those the ones who are delusional & have the need to be right? good luck with dat?



I got more if anyone wants to argue the Reformation was undertaken not to reform the old church (which is, after all, why it is called the Reformation ), but wants to insist incorrectly it was intent on forming a new one. Obviously not.

does it even begin to penetrate those the ones who are delusional & have the need to be right? good luck with dat?

 

[Rippon]

I got more if anyone wants to argue the Reformation was undertaken not to reform the old church (which is, after all, why it is called the Reformation ), but wants to insist incorrectly it was intent on forming a new one. Obviously not.[/QUOTE]

Whata' laugh! "Within the first generation." What a joke. Luther, who started the whole thing may have harbored the idea for all of four years, Calvin --never. Zwingli took 7 years. It took Martin Bucer less than 6 years. I would estimate that William Farel took about 8 years.Wolfgang Capito took about six years. So from this brand new movement these six major Reformers took an average of about 5 years a-piece to realize that the Roman Catholic Church could not be reformed within. The Reformation remained outside that body after the initial growing pains. Give credit where credit is due.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Sum'bodies messen wit muh posts.

Buht I sees its fer a grater gud, s'carries on!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Whata' laugh! "Within the first generation." What a joke. Luther, who started the whole thing may have harbored the idea for all of four years, Calvin --never. Zwingli took 7 years. It took Martin Bucer less than 6 years. I would estimate that William Farel took about 8 years.Wolfgang Capito took about six years.

Hmm ... First let's deal with your "Calvin -- never" error.

Christian Reformed Church: The Birth of the Reformed Churches (subsection)http://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/reformed-accent/what-reformedhttp://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/reformed-accent/what-reformed

Thoughtful Reformed Christians would probably answer that question by saying it was both. It was bad that the Reformation had to break up the visible unity of the church. But it was good that it did so because the church in those days had gone so far astray. Luther, Calvin, Knox, and Zwingli never wanted to break up the body of Christ. That’s why we call them “Reformers.” They wanted to stay in the church. They urgently tried to get the Church of Rome to re-form, to become obedient again to the Word of God. That was their aim—not to establish their own brand of Christianity. But they ran out of choices when the church leaders of their day stubbornly refused to budge and persecuted them ruthlessly. The Reformers had to break from the existing church. [Emphasis added]

So ... They actually undertook to reform the Catholic Church. You even provided us a list of names -- though you are wrong about Calvin, as just proven -- showing they did, indeed, intend to remain in the Catholic Church. Thanks for admitting that. Now we can move on.

 

[AVL1984]

Are you including Primitive Baptists & that type of Old School Society in your evaluation (because they would strongly object to that categorization)? If so, note that I don't want to be affiliated with Catholics or Protestants (realizing that the main objective was to reform the RC Church). But if this is the stance, then I would just designate myself as Christian & leave it at that.

Though I go to a Baptist church, I call myself "Christian" first.

 

[glazer1972]

Baptists are not protestant.