Basic Trinitarian Doctrine

[Lorelei]

Norman you ask why?

Because there is One God.
The Father is God.
Jesus is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.

However, the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Spirit. They are separate yet One.

There are many verses that speak of all 3. It reads beautifully in scripture if you don't ignore it. The only way to read it and realize that it doesn't contradict itself is to understand the trinity.

Your misunderstanding makes you think we think there are 3 Gods, there are not. There is but One God, namely the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

~Lorelei

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Norman; But isn't there a 'plurality' of persons being mentioned as sharing in the description of Isaiah 44:6--namely, "the LORD the King of Israel, *and* his redeemer the LORD of hosts"?

[ May 17, 2002, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: GrannyGumbo ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Norman:
"We can't define God in human terms and expect to fully understand Him. We must not limit God with our own limitations of space time and physical attributes and terminology. "
Lorelei, that's exactly why I think we should not insist on saying "three persons." God is not a person, one or three doesn't matter; the Bible just says God is one - Galations 3:20. God is Spirit - John4:24.
If it's so important to understand that God is three persons, why does the Bible not say so, not one single time?

He does:
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The eastern religions and many cults have "impersonal" gods. For example in the Unity Cult:

"The Metaphysical Dictionary, a work of Charles Fillmore states, "The Father is Principle, the Son is that Principle revealed in creative plan, the Holy Spirit is the executive power of both Father and Son carrying out the creative plan" (Metaphysical Bible Dictionary, p. 629) One Unity publication states, "God is all and all is God" (Unity, August, 1974, p.40)."

Christianity is not like that. The Father is a person. Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father." We have a Father, son relationship which is unthinkable in other religions such as Islam, because our Father (God) is a person.

Christ is a person. There is no argument there. He retains His glorified body from after His resurrection.

The Holy Spirit is a person. Annias lied unto God. Annias lied unto the Holy Spirit in Acts 5. You lie to people; not to influences or things. If the Holy Spirit were just like the wind, electricity, or some force, you would not lie to it. You lie to a person. You can't deceive the wind, though the wind may deceive you. The Holy Spirit is a person.

I pray to God. I am able to pray to the Father. I am able to pray to the Son. I am able to pray to the Holy Spirit. The reason I am able to pray to any one of these is because they are all persons, and yet they are but one God. A difficult concept, yes. But one that I accept by faith because it is taught in the Word of God.
DHK

 

[GrannyGumbo]

I can see these 'board onenesses' are really no different from the ones that live all around me. When I sing the little nursery-rhyme with my grandchildren, "here we go 'round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush...." I think: That's exactly how they are..going 'round & 'round & 'round forever defying the scriptures, proving who they truly serve. They have fallen into this sin & no one's ever confronted them before now, so perhaps it's too late. It is a sin of rebellion, self-will, & STUBBORNESS. There have been a few who have forsaken this doctrine, but most won't---because of their PRIDE.

[ May 17, 2002, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: GrannyGumbo ]

 

[susanpet]

I have often wondered why they seek the Holy Ghost and not Jesus. They accuse us of believing in 3 Gods. It looks like they believe in 2. If your doctrine is Jesus only, how come you are baptized in the Holy Ghost and not Jesus? How come you don't have the "evidence" of Jesus when you speak in tongues? When we mention the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, we are wrong, but you can leave off the Father, and its alright. There are three that bear record in heaven, and these three are one.
When 2 people get married they become ONE flesh, but they are still 2.

 

[Norman]

"How about noting that YHWH the King of Israel, is not his redeemer YHWH of hosts. So we are up to two just in this verse alone."

You mean YHWH the King of Israel is not the YHWH of hosts? There are two of YHWH? Where do you get that idea? Did you not read the rest of the verse?

 

[Norman]

"The Holy Spirit is a person. Annias lied unto God. Annias lied unto the Holy Spirit in Acts 5. You lie to people; not to influences or things. If the Holy Spirit were just like the wind, electricity, or some force, you would not lie to it. You lie to a person. You can't deceive the wind, though the wind may deceive you. The Holy Spirit is a person. "

You are just making an assumption there. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus. The Spirit is not the physical body of Jesus; we don't believe that; but Jesus is not just that physical person. And we don't think God was totally confined to that physical body; God was never at any time confined to one physical place. That's why we say God is not a person.
About the Holy Ghost being a "person" you don't mean physical person, do you?

 

[Norman]

"There are many verses that speak of all 3."

I believe in 3. I also believe in 7 and 1.
Notice I John 5:7 does not say "There are three persons " and it say Father, Word and Spirit, and concludes with "these three are one."
The Word is not the Spirit; but is your word a separate "person" from yourself? Is your mind a separate person from your emotions? You are made in the image of God; where are your other two persons?

 

[Norman]

"The verses we have been trying to get Oneness to attempt to explain without twisting their meaning into something they don't say are just a small sample. But as of yet he has not provided any answers. "

Are those verses in this thread? If so I guess I overlooked them Could you post them again?

 

[Norman]

>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colossians 2:8-10, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power."
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"If you just went 3 more verses you would see your position falls apart. v.13 "And you, who were dead in you trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with Him..."(refering back to Christ because of context)"

My position? Colossians 2:9-10 is what Paul wrote. How does it fall apart because Christ was raised from the dead? Are verses 9-10 somehow negated?

quote:
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I Timothy 3:16, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

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"So tell me who is the Spirit, because he sure doesn't sound like he is the same as God in this verse. If there were one in the same why would God in the flesh need to be vindicated."

Huh? What are you talking about? God was manifest "in" the flesh. God was not the flesh, but was in the flesh; why is that so hard for you to understand? And how in creation do you get a separate God out of the Spirit?

quote:
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I Timothy 6:15-16, "Which in his time he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen, nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen." The blessed and only Potentate - there can't be more than one if he is the "only Potentate."
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"While that section is obviously talking about Christ. There is just one problem v.13 "I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,"

You have a problem with what the Bible says? Notice I did not make any comments on that verse; I just quoted it.
You people really don't get the oneness position, or else you intentionally misrepresent it. Jesus walked the earth as a flesh-and-blood man; God was not, is not, never has been a flesh-and-blood man; but Jesus was more than a man. He was, as shown by John 14:9-11 and I Timothy 3:16 and II Corinthians 5:19, "God in man." II Corinthians 5:19 says very precisely, God was in Christ.
I Corinthians 2:8 refers to Jesus as "the Lord of glory." Do you want to deny that it says that?

 

[Norman]

"You can harp on 'person' not being found in Scripture, but neither is 'manifestation' in relation to the nature of God. "

But you insist on saying "three persons." And I Timothy 3:16 does say "God was manifest in the flesh."

 

[GrannyGumbo]

They sure have a way of ignoring my important(to me)questions...oh well, I'm used to it by now. I still don't have it straight if they think you have to have the HG (first) to be saved or speak in tongues (first)or if you're a lost person going into the water (& if water saves, then wouldn't you get re-baptized each time you bathed? Noah & his family never got a drop of water on them! I asked once if someone is unable to speak, does that mean he don't get to go to heaven or if someone got saved on an airplane & it crashed before he could be baptized, would he go to hell? And what about the thief on the cross? Also, does tongues come before or after believing? They never answer other than coming back with some of that 'lip'. There's certainly no scripture recording the actual conversation said in baptism, such as, "I now baptize thee in the name of....." Also, in the scriptures talking about the baptisms 'in the name of', it's written different each time,[Acts2:38-Jesus Christ; Acts8:16-Lord Jesus; Acts10:48-Lord];(but no Lord Jesus Christ), so why do they pick Acts 2:38? (personally, I think it's because they want to believe the "gift of the Holy Ghost" is speaking in tongues). And finally, when I try to show them other scriptures, they tell me I'm reading someone else's mail.

 

[Chemnitz]

Sorry folks but I won't be able to respond to any posts for a few weeks.

Until we meet again.

God bless.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Chemnitz, be careful & have a safe trip... (Remember me in your prayers if I come to mind). Thanks for helping me out at times & I hope I didn't make matters worse

 

[Norman]

"I still don't have it straight if they think you have to have the HG (first) to be saved or speak in tongues (first)"

GrannyGumbo, you know better than that. You can't speak in tongues - as the Spirit gives utterance -before you receive the Holy Ghost. You don't speak in tongues to get the Holy Ghost; if you know anybody that believes that, they are Totally mixed up.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

O * I * C; Well, I have had the Holy Ghost(He has mefor nearly 50yrs, but I've never spoken in tongues! Reckon how much preaching and instruction would it take for tongues to come? By the way, does Christ or baptism save you?

 

[jimraboin]

The key point I get from Scripture (which is Israel's revelation) is that God represents himself as being singular and at the same time he refers to himself in plural. This being the case doesn’t prove God is a triune “Godhead” or three distinct and separate personalities buzzing around in complete harmony. It is possible, but not provable without Catholic opinion. There are other viable possibilities that could explain the conflict.

Different manifestations of the very same God. Not three distinct personalities. Just three distinct manifestations. In this way God really is one. But why stop at only three manifestations? God has given himself many names. It is the same God manifesting himself to men differently to enhance his salvation plan. In this way he is completely one and not three personalities living in agreement with one another.

Example. I am a Father and a son and an uncle at the very same time. In all three cases it is me no matter which group I am with. My children see me as Father. My Father sees me as his son. My nephew sees me as uncle. But I am still exactly the same having only one personality even though different crowds would see me and know me differently. God can do this without time barriers so he can be three places at the same time. Or, he can manifest himself three ways at the same time. Nothing is impossible with God.

What brings on the difference in how I am represented to those around me depends on my connection or relation to those people. Yet I am the very same person in all cases. Could this be the case with God? Wouldn’t this scenario also fully describe what Scripture represents? Is it really one and the very same God who has manifested himself to men as the Father, Son and Spirit depending on our relations and connection with him? Couldn’t he be one and the very same personality manifesting himself to men in different ways? Just like Trinity, it is possible but not provable. More importantly, my concept doesn’t ignore Scriptural conflict. Trinity possibly does. Either way, none of us has ever seen God and God has not been very clear in describing himself to us. He probably did this by design.

Look over the following Scriptures that have shaped my current view. It is very important to me that I do not ignore anything Scripture teaches.

Deuteronomy 6:4  
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Mark 12:29 
“The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

John 14:7-9
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'?”

John 4:24 
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

1 Corinthians 2:11 
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Galatians 4:6 
Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

Revelation 5:6 
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

I am not saying that my concept is anymore provable than Catholic opinion. In fact, both are equally vague. Where I see fault is in Catholic institution creating a dogmatic doctrine on an idea that is not clearly revealed by God. It could be true. It just as easily may not be. But making the concept of Trinity a rite of passage doctrine into Christianity, I think is wrong, divisive and harmful. "Convert" to the concept of trinity or "die" does not come from our heavenly Father. Therefore, it appears to me who God is in this regard becomes a personally held belief much like Romans 14:5 outlines. It says, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.”

God is one. Scripture also refers to his Spirit and his Son. Scripture further states God is the Spirit and Jesus tells Philip that anyone who has seen him has seen the Father. In other words, Jesus seems to represent that he is Father. He is Emanuel or “God with us”. And Paul says Jesus has become a life giving spirit.

Could it be that some of our Jewish brothers are more correct by insisting God is singular? Is it possible that God refers to himself in the plural because of the different ways he has revealed himself to men? Or is he a triune Godhead being three distinct personalities in complete harmony? Or perhaps he is seven spirits all working together? Or maybe just two separate personalities between God the Father and Jesus?

The point is we don’t know for sure. Scripture refers to God both singularly and in the plural. We can’t dogmatically go any further than that without causing division. And we certainly don't accept Greek imaginations just because.

None of us has seen God. And God hasn’t seen fit to describe himself in full detail at this point. How then can we expect to dogmatically describe him? I don’t think we can. Any efforts to do so creates hostility and division for no other reason than to promote Catholic supremacy in doctrinal arenas.

My opinion.

Jim

 

[ONENESS]

"I still don't have it straight if they think you have to have the HG (first) to be saved or speak in tongues (first)"

GrannyGumbo, you know better than that. You can't speak in tongues - as the Spirit gives utterance -before you receive the Holy Ghost. You don't speak in tongues to get the Holy Ghost; if you know anybody that believes that, they are Totally mixed up.

The answer would simply be that you have to have the HG, as PART of salvation. Apostolics in no way seek to speak in tongues. (To be "saved" from what, to what and how?)

Simply stated, after the crowd of believers (WOW!!! They were already believed!!!) heard Peter and the 11 expound on who Jesus really was the question was raised, "What shall we do?"

(For they felt guilty for crucifying Jesus at that point.)

Peters response was, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

(Note, no contention was recorded by the other 11 that were there, arguing with him that his "formula" for baptism was not as Jesus told them to do so in Matthew 28:19)

Also note, he told them that they "shall" recieve the HG. (Not "did" recieve when they believed, but "shall".

Follow through the remaining chapters of the Book of Acts, (Actions of the Apostles) seeing how the New Testament Church was founded in each of many cities; Ephesus, Corinth, Rome and you will find a few consistant themes,

They were baptized not one time using the titles; Father, Son & HG.

You will also not find where anyone in scripture recieved, "when they believed", but more consistant to scripture is believing then recieving, (Acts 10, Acts 19).

"Have you recieved the HG since you believed?" a question poised to already believers, in fact disciples!!!

WHY?!?!?

Because they needed more from God, believing was not ample enough to complete their salvation. No more than "believing" that a light switch will turn on the light. Without walking over to the switch and taking action the room remains unlight.

Jesus taught to "believe as the scripture hath said". If we believe truly as scripture says, than we follow scripture in its entirety, not singleness.

I guess i said all that to say this, scripture teaches that we can not enter or see the Kingdom of God without being born again, of water and spirit.

(Don't make the same mistake Nicodemus made, by confusing the two - Spirit birth and physical birth are two separate things, Jesus was not speaking of a phyical birth here).

Scripture consistantly shows repentance, baptism and being filled with the HG, yet does not simply end with believing in Jesus.

"...He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"
"...Whereunto baptism also doth now save us."
"...but according to His mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the HG"

Do we take one of these scriptures and say I am saved because of one!?!? Nay!! We take and apply all of them....

....to be saved is to believe as the Scripture hath said.....

All this, written in efforts not to diminsh what you may already have with our Lord Jesus Christ, but to possibly expand upon.

Not written with discord in mind, but to unify.

Should you choose to discuss these topics or others in greater detail. please feel free to so via email as I am only a visitor to this site via request.

Wishing you God Speed,

In love,

Matthew E. Drake
matthewdrakenc@hotmail.com

 

[Lorelei]

How many were witness to Jesus? 1 or 2? 2 is the necessary number to fulfill the law and 2 is the number Jesus said:

13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

If the son is the Father, there is but only one witness to the Son.

Who took the scroll from the one sitting on the throne? If the Father did, then who is on the throne? If the Father, then why was someone needed to take it? Why were they weeping that no one could if the Father took the scroll out of the Father's hand?

Revelation 5:1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[1] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.

Oneness people often use these verses to make thier claim. As I was reading them today, I noticed something that they ignore.

Ephesians 4:4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

I ask you if the one God and Father is the Spirit and the Son, then what do these words mean?

"one Spirit, one Lord, one God"

It says there is One God the Father, but also acknowledges a Spirit and a Lord right along side him. How do you answer that. Paul refers often to God as the Father and Jesus as our Lord and savior. Here is says there is one of each, that they are not the same, yet you say this means they are. What do you say the one spirit and the one Lord referring to?

~Lorelei

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Dear Lorelei~I have admired your ability to remain calm & your wisdom & knowledge of God's Word is outstanding! [THANK YOU!] I am not able to answer so eloquently, so I thank the Lord for you. Where are the men; where are the preachers? That's why the oneness-doctrine is so rampant in my area-there are none speaking out & I make a mess of things when I do; but I KNOW they are in error! Keep on keeping on & may God bless you always. Patricia (Granny)