Be On Guard against false doctrine.....False Ideas on PSA considered

[JonC]

When a thing is done by one person for another person. The second person ended up not doing said thing. The first person having done on behalf of the other functionally substituted self in doing for the other. This is the nature of a substitution. To be the issue of a substitution is what was substituted.

Kinda, but not quite.

I went to the doctors office for my wife (for her benefit) last week. She was there. People yestify in court for other people, on their behalf....not instead of them. A representative makes decisions on the behalf of those whom he represents. The decisions are for them, in their interest. But not "instead of" them.

Essentially Adam sinned....not instead of us but "on our behalf". And the Last Adam died, not instead of us but on our behalf.

 

[37818]

Essentially Adam sinned....not instead of us but "on our behalf". And the Last Adam died, not instead of us but on our behalf.

It is worse than that. We are conceived with that "knowledge of good and evil" to die death from conception. Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:22.

 

[JonC]

It is worse than that. We are conceived with that "knowledge of good and evil" to die death from conception. Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:22.

Well, that is not actually what "conceived in sin" means (I hold to a literal interpretation of Scripture, remember) but yea...we all have sinned. We are born as the First Adam but need to be reborn in the Last Adam (flesh vs Spirit).

 

[Iconoclast]

@Iconoclast,
I have been pondering this for some time, how does one present a certian false teaching commonly accepted as orthodox truth by the vast majority of genuine Christians, namely the concept of the immortality of the soul. Some are easer than others. Most are considered secondary issues. What I am thinking about is the Bibical teaching of the mortality of the soul, Ezekiel 18:4, Matthew 10:28. The physical death of the body, Jesus taught does not kill the soul. That both the soul and body die in Hell. Jesus used the word elsewhere translated "perish." John 3:16. What does not die is called the "worm." Regarding the perishing, Mark 9:48 and Christ, Psalms 22:6. Ref, Psalms 22:1.

This will be more the subject of a different thread it doesn't really relate to the focus of this thread

 

[Iconoclast]

@Iconoclast,

Where does the Scriptures indicate the wrath of God is “turned away?”

As you could see if you have the correct definition biblical definition of the word used in the verses it clearly indicates where the wrath of God is turned away

 

[JonC]

As you could see if you have the correct definition biblical definition of the word used in the verses it clearly indicates where the wrath of God is turned away

You mean we "escape the wrath to come" or that God "passed over sins previously committed"?

 

[Iconoclast]

You mean we "escape the wrath to come" or that God "passed over sins previously committed"?

We do escape the wrath to come because Jesus as our mediator and propitiation has suffered it in our place.
God does not passover any sin but all come to a head at the cross.
All sin is punished justly....in the sinner or the substitute..

 

[37818]

Well, that is not actually what "conceived in sin" means (I hold to a literal interpretation of Scripture, remember) but yea...we all have sinned. We are born as the First Adam but need to be reborn in the Last Adam (flesh vs Spirit).

Then the Plagiarism would be true. Which it isn't. Either one inherits that "knowledge of good and evil" or one does not, in which Plagiarism would be true.

 

[Iconoclast]

And this is supposed to be negative toward what @JonC and I have posted?

I see absolutely no conflict other than what you posted does NOT support PSA thinking.

It ACTUALLY supports what @JonC and I have been presenting.

Do you not see that?

Why?

Is it that you cling to PSA and that error is preventing you from seeing that even what you present supports what @JonC and I have posted and not PSA.

Reminds me of the statement of our Lord when in the treasury of the temple.

It shows that when you mention verses without understanding the words used you are no longer biblical but have voided the meaning of the verse having not understood such words correctly.
Other who take the time to search this out have seen the conclusion already.

 

[JonC]

We do escape the wrath to come because Jesus as our mediator and propitiation has suffered it in our place.
God does not passover any sin but all come to a head at the cross.
All sin is punished justly....in the sinner or the substitute..

But that is not what Scrioture actually says (and that is not the reason Scripture gives for why we escape the wrath to come).

 

[JonC]

Then the Plagiarism would be true. Which it isn't. Either one inherits that "knowledge of good and evil" or one does not, in which Plagiarism would be true.

No. Plagiarism is false.

 

[Iconoclast]

But that is not what Scrioture actually says (and that is not the reason Scripture gives for why we escape the wrath to come).

Yes....that is exactly what it says.That is exactly what it teaches..
Read through post 87.

 

[Iconoclast]

Gal4:4 preceptaustin
SETTING FREE BY
PAYING A PRICE

One English dictionary defines redeem as "to recover possession or ownership of by payment of a price or service." Webster has "to buy back; to free from what distresses or harms: such as to free from captivity by payment of ransom; to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental."

So that - term of purpose - Gives the purpose for which God sent forth His Son and it was that He might be the Redeemer of men in bondage to the Law and sin. In Galatians 4:4 Paul

He might redeem those who were under the Law - The implication of being under the Law is also of being under the curse (Gal 3:13). See also Ro 2:12 Ro 3:19 1 Cor 9:20, 21 Gal 3:10, 23. Like all men, Jesus was obligated to obey God’s law. Unlike anyone else, however, He perfectly obeyed that law (Jn 8:46; 2Co 5:21; Heb 4:15; Heb 7:26; 1 Pe 2:22; 1 Jn 3:5). In Paul's day a slave could be purchased in a Roman city and the purchaser could either keep the slave for himself or he could set the slave free. Jesus was our "Purchaser" Who paid the price to set us free. The paradox is that while we are now at liberty, we are also His possession (Titus 2:14).

Might redeem (1805)(exagorazo from ek = out or from + agorazo = acquire in exchange for money with result that whatever has been bought is buyer's possession <> agora = market place) means literally to buy out of (ek = out of) the market place. The idea is not just to redeem but to completely redeem. Exagorazo is used only 4x in NT - Gal. 3:13; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 5:16; Col. 4:5. Paul has already used this verb in Galatians 3

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us–for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”– (Gal 3:13+)


NOTE - Redemption. Three ideas are involved in the doctrine of redemption:
(1) paying the ransom with the blood of Christ (1 Co 6:20+; Rev 5:9+);

(2) removal from the curse of the law (Gal 3:13+; Gal 4:5)

(3) release from the bondage of sin into the freedom of grace (here and in 1 Pe 1:18+). Redemption is through Jesus' blood; i.e., through the death of Christ (Col 1:14+).

Jesus had to take on flesh and blood in order to qualify as our Kinsman-Redeemer (our Goel) and thus even be able to pay the ransom price:

1 Peter 1:18; 19+ knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 2:14-15+ Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Hebrews 2:17+ Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,
to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Sent forth (1821)(exapostello from ek = out, forth + apostello = to send away) means to send away or send forth as on a mission (Acts 17:14, Acts 7:12, Acts 11:22). Both here and Gal 4:4 the sending forth is a divine mission from the Father to fallen men to save them (Gal 4:4) and then to sanctify them (Gal 4:6), for the Spirit in the redeemed is the "Power Source" for daily living, daily sanctification (2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2). Are you learning to lean on the everlasting arms of the Spirit of God for the power to live the Christian life? If not, you are likely experiencing frustration, failure, futility, etc. Our new supernatural life necessitates daily dependence on God's supernatural Source, the Spirit of His Son!

All of these ideas blend together to supply the biblical idea to answer all these questions.
This reminds me of the difference of my grandchildren making a drawing using triangles as mountains stick figures as trees and a circle for the Sun.....and Bob Ross constructing a full mountain landscape as he does.

 

[37818]

This will be more the subject of a different thread it doesn't really relate to the focus of this thread

It relates to the atonement being completed before Christ's physical death. Before John 19:28 even. Isaiah 53:12. Ezekiel 18:4.

 

[JonC]

Yes....that is exactly what it says.That is exactly what it teaches..
Read through post 87.

None of those passages stayed God justly punished sin on Christ. None of them say God punished Jesus at all. None of them say Jesus experienced God's wrath.

Hebrews 2:14-15 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

 

[AustinC]

None of those passages stayed God justly punished sin on Christ. None of them say God punished Jesus at all. None of them say Jesus experienced God's wrath.

Hebrews 2:14-15 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Jon, surely you don't equate Hebrews 2:14-15 with atonement. These verses express that God the Son also became 100% human.
Jesus death rendered the devil powerless. The preacher, here, is not addressing God the Father's response to the sacrificial, substitutionary atonement for our sins.

 

[37818]

No. Plagiarism is false.

Because of being conceived with that "knowledge of good and evil "

 

[Iconoclast]

But that is not what Scrioture actually says (and that is not the reason Scripture gives for why we escape the wrath to come).

In post 87....terms are explained then He offers Hebrews2:17
The term propitiation brings in the reason He identified with The Covenant children of 2 :9-16...So as both our Great High Priest and the sinless sacrifice...he turned away any future wrath to the seed of Abraham.
Everyone else understands the wording and what it is saying.
You two may or may not.
RM....in his thread OP. Correctly identified the mighty struggle you two are having.

 

[Iconoclast]

And this disproves what @JonC and I have been posting?

We have posted more concerning Scriptures and more Scriptures then any one else on these threads.

We hold Scriptures as the final authority. Do you? You have in the past.

So when we show that the Scriptures have not and do not support PSA, and we show why they do not, and quote others who have proclaimed that very claim - who do yo believe? We who have shown from Scriptures or those who would ply the scriptures with philosophical arguments that pervert God's Holy Word?

No Agedman...your postings have ignored the word meaning which we are supplying..This is what everyone has been saying but you are not listening because you are in a defensive mode...not looking to read and listen but rather attack and refute.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast,
]rom4:25 preceptaustin;

Satisfaction is used as a synonym for propitiation, the concept of satisfaction being that the moral requirement of God has been completely met by the death of His Son on behalf of the believer and therefore has satisfied or propitiated God.

Hilasterion means a sacrifice that bears God's wrath to the end and in so doing changes God's wrath toward us into favor.

God has set the sinner free through Christ, but He has not done so by setting aside the rules.

He has set the sinner free in Christ by satisfying the demands of God’s justice in Christ.

Due to sin, a penalty was to be meted out and a price was to be paid. Christ paid that price and suffered that penalty (“redemption”). God’s divine wrath had to be appeased, due to man’s sin; Christ has appeased that wrath (“propitiation”).

A closely related word is hilasmos which refers to that which propitiates or that which appeases. John uses this word writing that Jesus

"Himself is the propitiation (hilasmos - appeasement, satisfaction) for our sins… " (1 Jn 2:2-note)

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross satisfied the demands of God’s holiness for the punishment of sin. So Jesus propitiated or satisfied God.

Yes...this makes it very clear...The words have a. Biblical meaning that instructs us.