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Featured Be On Guard against false doctrine.....False Ideas on PSA considered

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Mar 10, 2022.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Kinda, but not quite.

    I went to the doctors office for my wife (for her benefit) last week. She was there. People yestify in court for other people, on their behalf....not instead of them. A representative makes decisions on the behalf of those whom he represents. The decisions are for them, in their interest. But not "instead of" them.

    Essentially Adam sinned....not instead of us but "on our behalf". And the Last Adam died, not instead of us but on our behalf.
     
    #101 JonC, Mar 12, 2022
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It is worse than that. We are conceived with that "knowledge of good and evil" to die death from conception. Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:22.
     
    #102 37818, Mar 12, 2022
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Well, that is not actually what "conceived in sin" means (I hold to a literal interpretation of Scripture, remember) but yea...we all have sinned. We are born as the First Adam but need to be reborn in the Last Adam (flesh vs Spirit).
     
    #103 JonC, Mar 12, 2022
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This will be more the subject of a different thread it doesn't really relate to the focus of this thread
     
    #104 Iconoclast, Mar 12, 2022
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    As you could see if you have the correct definition biblical definition of the word used in the verses it clearly indicates where the wrath of God is turned away
     
    #105 Iconoclast, Mar 12, 2022
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You mean we "escape the wrath to come" or that God "passed over sins previously committed"?
     
    #106 JonC, Mar 12, 2022
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    We do escape the wrath to come because Jesus as our mediator and propitiation has suffered it in our place.
    God does not passover any sin but all come to a head at the cross.
    All sin is punished justly....in the sinner or the substitute..
     
    #107 Iconoclast, Mar 12, 2022
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  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Then the Plagiarism would be true. Which it isn't. Either one inherits that "knowledge of good and evil" or one does not, in which Plagiarism would be true.
     
    #108 37818, Mar 12, 2022
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    It shows that when you mention verses without understanding the words used you are no longer biblical but have voided the meaning of the verse having not understood such words correctly.
    Other who take the time to search this out have seen the conclusion already.
     
    #109 Iconoclast, Mar 12, 2022
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But that is not what Scrioture actually says (and that is not the reason Scripture gives for why we escape the wrath to come).
     
    #110 JonC, Mar 12, 2022
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. Plagiarism is false.
     
    #111 JonC, Mar 12, 2022
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  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes....that is exactly what it says.That is exactly what it teaches..
    Read through post 87.
     
    #112 Iconoclast, Mar 12, 2022
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  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    All of these ideas blend together to supply the biblical idea to answer all these questions.
    This reminds me of the difference of my grandchildren making a drawing using triangles as mountains stick figures as trees and a circle for the Sun.....and Bob Ross constructing a full mountain landscape as he does.
     
    #113 Iconoclast, Mar 12, 2022
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  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It relates to the atonement being completed before Christ's physical death. Before John 19:28 even. Isaiah 53:12. Ezekiel 18:4.
     
    #114 37818, Mar 12, 2022
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    None of those passages stayed God justly punished sin on Christ. None of them say God punished Jesus at all. None of them say Jesus experienced God's wrath.

    Hebrews 2:14-15 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
     
    #115 JonC, Mar 12, 2022
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Jon, surely you don't equate Hebrews 2:14-15 with atonement. These verses express that God the Son also became 100% human.
    Jesus death rendered the devil powerless. The preacher, here, is not addressing God the Father's response to the sacrificial, substitutionary atonement for our sins.
     
    #116 AustinC, Mar 12, 2022
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  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Because of being conceived with that "knowledge of good and evil "
     
    #117 37818, Mar 12, 2022
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In post 87....terms are explained then He offers Hebrews2:17
    The term propitiation brings in the reason He identified with The Covenant children of 2 :9-16...So as both our Great High Priest and the sinless sacrifice...he turned away any future wrath to the seed of Abraham.
    Everyone else understands the wording and what it is saying.
    You two may or may not.
    RM....in his thread OP. Correctly identified the mighty struggle you two are having.
     
    #118 Iconoclast, Mar 12, 2022
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  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No Agedman...your postings have ignored the word meaning which we are supplying..This is what everyone has been saying but you are not listening because you are in a defensive mode...not looking to read and listen but rather attack and refute.
     
    #119 Iconoclast, Mar 12, 2022
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  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Iconoclast,
    ]rom4:25 preceptaustin;

    Satisfaction is used as a synonym for propitiation, the concept of satisfaction being that the moral requirement of God has been completely met by the death of His Son on behalf of the believer and therefore has satisfied or propitiated God.

    Hilasterion means a sacrifice that bears God's wrath to the end and in so doing changes God's wrath toward us into favor.

    God has set the sinner free through Christ, but He has not done so by setting aside the rules.

    He has set the sinner free in Christ by satisfying the demands of God’s justice in Christ.

    Due to sin, a penalty was to be meted out and a price was to be paid. Christ paid that price and suffered that penalty (“redemption”). God’s divine wrath had to be appeased, due to man’s sin; Christ has appeased that wrath (“propitiation”).

    A closely related word is hilasmos which refers to that which propitiates or that which appeases. John uses this word writing that Jesus

    "Himself is the propitiation (hilasmos - appeasement, satisfaction) for our sins… " (1 Jn 2:2-note)

    The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross satisfied the demands of God’s holiness for the punishment of sin. So Jesus propitiated or satisfied God.

    Yes...this makes it very clear...The words have a. Biblical meaning that instructs us.
     
    #120 Iconoclast, Mar 12, 2022
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