Being Saved?

[Van]

being saved is the same as entering/inheriting the kingdom of God....

When do we enter the kingdom of God? The answer depends on whether we mean, when do we enter the kingdom of God spiritually, or physically.

When God, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, baptizes us into Christ, we are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. In order to enter into the kingdom we must be born anew, thus after we are baptized into Christ's death, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, we arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, and saved. We are sealed in Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit forever.

So what is all this stuff about "inheriting" something or being heirs of something. Lets consider this idea.

Matthew 19:29 says if we leave what we loved for Christ's sake, we will receive better stuff including inheriting eternal life. One way to look at this is if we are saved we will receive better stuff, i.e. the blessings of salvation, which includes inheriting eternal life.

Matthew 25:35 refers to those on the right inheriting the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. So this "kingdom" has been prepared for the heirs, i.e. the children of God.

Mark 17:10 and Luke 18:18 refer to inheriting eternal life, recounting the story of the Rich Young Ruler.

Luke 10:25 has the lawyer asking about inheriting eternal life, with the answer being to love God and our neighbors with all our heart. So salvation does not come from believing the right doctrines, but from loving God with all our heart. And to do this, we must leave what we loved other than God, putting God alone on the throne of our heart.


Bottom line, it not just turning to God and trusting in Christ, it is also about leaving worldly treasures for the love of God.

 

[Greektim]

Your thing w/ the Kingdom of God begs the question not about physical or spiritual but just exactly what is the kingdom of God (juxtaposing it into a dichotomy of spiritual and physical is a foreign notion to ANEers; that is a Western notion).

And I think you would do well to read the theme of inheritance redemptive-historically.

 

[Van]

Huh?

Your thing w/ the Kingdom of God begs the question not about physical or spiritual but just exactly what is the kingdom of God (juxtaposing it into a dichotomy of spiritual and physical is a foreign notion to ANEers; that is a Western notion).

And I think you would do well to read the theme of inheritance redemptive-historically.

Just what is the kingdom of God, is it a spiritual realm we enter when God puts us "in Christ" or is it a physical realm we enter when we are bodily resurrected or is it both?

I will inherit the physical kingdom of God because I am a spiritual child of God. If you hold a differing view, please present it or present a link to a paper on the subject. My view is supported by the scriptures cited, but no alternate view has been presented.

 

[percho]

When do we enter the kingdom of God? The answer depends on whether we mean, when do we enter the kingdom of God spiritually, or physically.

When God, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, baptizes us into Christ, we are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. In order to enter into the kingdom we must be born anew, thus after we are baptized into Christ's death, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, we arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, and saved. We are sealed in Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit forever.

So what is all this stuff about "inheriting" something or being heirs of something. Lets consider this idea.

Matthew 19:29 says if we leave what we loved for Christ's sake, we will receive better stuff including inheriting eternal life. One way to look at this is if we are saved we will receive better stuff, i.e. the blessings of salvation, which includes inheriting eternal life.

Matthew 25:35 refers to those on the right inheriting the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. So this "kingdom" has been prepared for the heirs, i.e. the children of God.

Mark 17:10 and Luke 18:18 refer to inheriting eternal life, recounting the story of the Rich Young Ruler.

Luke 10:25 has the lawyer asking about inheriting eternal life, with the answer being to love God and our neighbors with all our heart. So salvation does not come from believing the right doctrines, but from loving God with all our heart. And to do this, we must leave what we loved other than God, putting God alone on the throne of our heart.


Bottom line, it not just turning to God and trusting in Christ, it is also about leaving worldly treasures for the love of God.

What are we sealed for?

Who are kept by the power of God (sealed by the Holy Spirit) through faith (We received the promise of the Spirit through the faith. Meaning we have received the blessings of Abraham through Jesus Christ, that blessing being the imputation of the righteousness of God, that is justified ,made righteous, by the blood of Christ) unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:5 {That being} To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1 Peter 1:4 By the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are begotten again, sanctified, set apart unto a lively
hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. 1 Peter 1:3

In the story of the rich young ruler in Matthew, Mark and Luke, inheriting eternal life, entering the kingdom of God and being saved are equated as being the same.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50

You, even though you are in Christ, was born of the flesh and currently made up of flesh and blood and corruptible. You cannot enter the kingdom of God, naked, that is without a body, you will need to be clothed with your house from heaven, That house is a body incorruptible called eternal life. In Christ you have been translated from the kingdom of darkness unto the kingdom of God (Light)

By the resurrection of Jesus Christ you have been made meet to be partekers of the inheritance of the saints in light: The same inheritance spoken of in 1 Cor 15:50

I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Think about this.

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and (because they) are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Even Jesus: And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Romans 1:4 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Acts 13:34 When did he God the Father give Jesus his Son the sure mercies of David?

Here is a good question. What power did he have by resurrection from the dead?

 

[Greektim]

Just what is the kingdom of God, is it a spiritual realm we enter when God puts us "in Christ" or is it a physical realm we enter when we are bodily resurrected or is it both?

I will inherit the physical kingdom of God because I am a spiritual child of God. If you hold a differing view, please present it or present a link to a paper on the subject. My view is supported by the scriptures cited, but no alternate view has been presented.

Why do you have to reduce it to a dichotomy of physical and spiritual??? You are assuming a Western notion on an Ancient Eastern concept.

 

[Van]

Why do you have to reduce it to a dichotomy of physical and spiritual??? You are assuming a Western notion on an Ancient Eastern concept.

Why not express an alternate view of scripture? The view expressed is the biblical view. No other view has been expressed. BTW, dichotomy does not mean both. Just saying...

Thus a dichotomy would reduce the kingdom of God to either spiritual or physical, but not both, i.e. we enter spiritually when God puts us in Christ, then physically when we are bodily resurrected.

Still no explanation of an alternate view, just an asserted dichotomy between a western view and an eastern view.

Me thinks thou protest too much.

 

[Van]

For what purpose are we sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit? How does scripture read to you? (Ephesians 4:30?) The seal does not refer to some sort of fastener that keeps us in Christ, but rather it is a mark of spiritual son-ship. And the pledge or guarantee of the Holy Spirit forever demonstrates we will receive the additional promises of son-ship (a spiritual child of God) including physically entering the kingdom of God and eternal life with God.

Hi Percho, lets try to stay on track. Who inherits? The children!!, i.e. we become heirs when we are born anew. So salvation occurs when God puts us spiritually in Christ, setting us apart by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit who baptizes us into Christ's death. Thus we are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. Now as a child of God, an heir, we then will inherit eternal life and the kingdom of God.

 

[percho]

Van

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50

Could Jesus of Nazareth have inherited the kingdom of God prior to his resurrection?

Relative to the kingdom of God what would be your understanding of the following verses?

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Luke 19:11,12,15

Rev 11:15, 18 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Tim 4:1

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Ask the people who lost children in the school shooting in CT if they think they live in a world in subjection to God and the men he has chosen to rule with his Son or is this world in subjection presently to someone else?

Lord, teach us to pray. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Luke 11:2

1 Cor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

 

[Greektim]

Why not express an alternate view of scripture? The view expressed is the biblical view. No other view has been expressed. BTW, dichotomy does not mean both. Just saying...

Thus a dichotomy would reduce the kingdom of God to either spiritual or physical, but not both, i.e. we enter spiritually when God puts us in Christ, then physically when we are bodily resurrected.

Still no explanation of an alternate view, just an asserted dichotomy between a western view and an eastern view.

Me thinks thou protest too much.

Me thinks you cannot think outside of your own narrow terms.

Perhaps the kingdom is not a spiritual or physical but a both/and. And even in that case, it probably was not thought of in those terms. You are imposing a dichotomy on the text that was extremely foreign.

And where in the world do you get off saying your understanding is biblical when no verse you gave says the kingdom is spiritual or physical. You have more exegetical/theological arrogance than most here. You are going beyond the bible (not a bad thing) but venturing into western dualism.

Here is an example. You talked about entering spiritually and to be later bodily. But Paul says in Ephesians that we have been raised w/ Christ already. So in some sense, we have already in a (to use your term) physical sense. We have already experienced in an already form new creation yet to be consummated.

I really don't think you have the basic rudimentary skills to think outside your own box of narrow theological terms. The fact that you make the dichotomy of physical vs spiritual expresses the fact that you miss how the Bible saw heaven and earth not seperated but connected via temple. Your view of divine space and the spiritual/physical dichotomy is an outgrowth of Platonic thought not Biblical theology.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

Me thinks you cannot think outside of your own narrow terms.

Perhaps the kingdom is not a spiritual or physical but a both/and. And even in that case, it probably was not thought of in those terms. You are imposing a dichotomy on the text that was extremely foreign.

And where in the world do you get off saying your understanding is biblical when no verse you gave says the kingdom is spiritual or physical. You have more exegetical/theological arrogance than most here. You are going beyond the bible (not a bad thing) but venturing into western dualism.

Here is an example. You talked about entering spiritually and to be later bodily. But Paul says in Ephesians that we have been raised w/ Christ already. So in some sense, we have already in a (to use your term) physical sense. We have already experienced in an already form new creation yet to be consummated.

I really don't think you have the basic rudimentary skills to think outside your own box of narrow theological terms. The fact that you make the dichotomy of physical vs spiritual expresses the fact that you miss how the Bible saw heaven and earth not seperated but connected via temple. Your view of divine space and the spiritual/physical dichotomy is an outgrowth of Platonic thought not Biblical theology.

1) Saying I cannot think outside of my own paradigm seem like questioning my cognitive abilities. Personal attacks do not bolster you view, they demonstrate its lack.

2) I said entering the kingdom spiritually occurs when God places us in Christ, and we enter the kingdom bodily when we are resurrected in glorified bodies. So you seem to be finding fault with the view you agree with.

3) So no verse says we must be born anew spiritually. This is fairly "rudimentary." You might take a look at John 3.

4) You are the one introducing "western dualism" into the thread, I was explaining how entering and inheriting are parts of the same salvation.

So again, you are finding fault where none exists, offering personal attacks, and making an effort to derail the discussion. Nothing to write home about.

 

[percho]

Being saved.

I know, no Greek and I know, no Hebrew. I can only go by what others say.

Saved form what? Gen. 2:17

ת מ
muth
to-die
ת
מָ
thmuth
you-shall-die

YLT and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

The penalty of when you die you will be dead forever, brought upon all men by Adam. The only thing which could void this would be the Grace of life from God. However God determined the penalty therefore why would give the grace of life to a sinful man. He would not do so for he could not, however he could give the grace of life to a man without sin who gave his sinless life.

It is not about spiritual or physical death, it is about death, period.

Eph 2:1 YLT Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
Says the exact same thing as Gen 2:17
They had been under sin, of which the law made knowledge of, which brought eternal death.

Now because of Christ the sinless one in faith having given his life and having been raised from the dead, the grace of God his Father, they are heirs of the hope of eternal life. See Titus 3:7

A lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

In Christ, who has been raised from the dead, they have hope of being raised from the dead.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also of resurrection: Rom 6:5
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Rom, 6:8

 

[Greektim]

1) Saying I cannot think outside of my own paradigm seem like questioning my cognitive abilities. Personal attacks do not bolster you view, they demonstrate its lack.

2) I said entering the kingdom spiritually occurs when God places us in Christ, and we enter the kingdom bodily when we are resurrected in glorified bodies. So you seem to be finding fault with the view you agree with.

3) So no verse says we must be born anew spiritually. This is fairly "rudimentary." You might take a look at John 3.

4) You are the one introducing "western dualism" into the thread, I was explaining how entering and inheriting are parts of the same salvation.

So again, you are finding fault where none exists, offering personal attacks, and making an effort to derail the discussion. Nothing to write home about.

Really... personal attack. Is your skin so thin??? And trust me, if I wanted to attack you personally, it would be obvious. Regardless, I will just leave you with this picture b/c I think this is your biggest problem.

 

[HisWitness]

Being saved.

I know, no Greek and I know, no Hebrew. I can only go by what others say.

Saved form what? Gen. 2:17

ת מ
muth
to-die
ת
מָ
thmuth
you-shall-die

YLT and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

The penalty of when you die you will be dead forever, brought upon all men by Adam. The only thing which could void this would be the Grace of life from God. However God determined the penalty therefore why would give the grace of life to a sinful man. He would not do so for he could not, however he could give the grace of life to a man without sin who gave his sinless life.

It is not about spiritual or physical death, it is about death, period.

Eph 2:1 YLT Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
Says the exact same thing as Gen 2:17
They had been under sin, of which the law made knowledge of, which brought eternal death.

Now because of Christ the sinless one in faith having given his life and having been raised from the dead, the grace of God his Father, they are heirs of the hope of eternal life. See Titus 3:7

A lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

In Christ, who has been raised from the dead, they have hope of being raised from the dead.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also of resurrection: Rom 6:5
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Rom, 6:8

This is why Paul had to comfort the Thessalonians on their loved oned dead in Christ--because they knew the DEATH they had died and didnt understand what would happen--But paul explained to them that they would beraised from the dead!!! and caught up with Christ

 

[HisWitness]

Being saved.

I know, no Greek and I know, no Hebrew. I can only go by what others say.

Saved form what? Gen. 2:17

ת מ
muth
to-die
ת
מָ
thmuth
you-shall-die

YLT and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

The penalty of when you die you will be dead forever, brought upon all men by Adam. The only thing which could void this would be the Grace of life from God. However God determined the penalty therefore why would give the grace of life to a sinful man. He would not do so for he could not, however he could give the grace of life to a man without sin who gave his sinless life.

It is not about spiritual or physical death, it is about death, period.

Eph 2:1 YLT Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
Says the exact same thing as Gen 2:17
They had been under sin, of which the law made knowledge of, which brought eternal death.

Now because of Christ the sinless one in faith having given his life and having been raised from the dead, the grace of God his Father, they are heirs of the hope of eternal life. See Titus 3:7

A lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

In Christ, who has been raised from the dead, they have hope of being raised from the dead.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also of resurrection: Rom 6:5
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Rom, 6:8

Also thank the Lord DEATH has been defeated and there is NO more SOUL DEATH--meaning people are not dead in the grave any longer

 

[percho]

Also thank the Lord DEATH has been defeated and there is NO more SOUL DEATH--meaning people are not dead in the grave any longer

Absolutely


But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1 Thess 4:13 for these are the dead in Christ of verse 16. They had been baptized by the Spirit into the church, the body of Christ and the Thessalonians were concerned about how these dead in Christ were going to be in the kingdom of God.

2 Tim 4:1 I charge therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. Even so, they will enter the kingdom at the appearing of Jesus and the kingdom by resurrection from the dead. Paul preached the kingdom of God and the king Jesus to the Thesslonians See Acts 17.

 

[Yeshua1]

When do we enter the kingdom of God? The answer depends on whether we mean, when do we enter the kingdom of God spiritually, or physically.

When God, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, baptizes us into Christ, we are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. In order to enter into the kingdom we must be born anew, thus after we are baptized into Christ's death, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, we arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, and saved. We are sealed in Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit forever.

So what is all this stuff about "inheriting" something or being heirs of something. Lets consider this idea.

Matthew 19:29 says if we leave what we loved for Christ's sake, we will receive better stuff including inheriting eternal life. One way to look at this is if we are saved we will receive better stuff, i.e. the blessings of salvation, which includes inheriting eternal life.

Matthew 25:35 refers to those on the right inheriting the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. So this "kingdom" has been prepared for the heirs, i.e. the children of God.

Mark 17:10 and Luke 18:18 refer to inheriting eternal life, recounting the story of the Rich Young Ruler.

Luke 10:25 has the lawyer asking about inheriting eternal life, with the answer being to love God and our neighbors with all our heart. So salvation does not come from believing the right doctrines, but from loving God with all our heart. And to do this, we must leave what we loved other than God, putting God alone on the throne of our heart.


Bottom line, it not just turning to God and trusting in Christ, it is also about leaving worldly treasures for the love of God.

when do we become part of the Kingdom of Christ?

exact moment we receive jesus as our saviour by faith!

 

[percho]

when do we become part of the Kingdom of Christ?

exact moment we receive jesus as our saviour by faith!

Is the kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of God the same?

Presently as flesh and blood beings we are baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ that is the church. That which is born of the flesh is flesh John 3:6
Lev 17:14 For the life of all flesh; the blood of it for the life thereof:
For the life (nephesh soul) of all flesh; the blood of it for the life (nephesh soul) thereof:

For the soul of all flesh; the blood of it for the soul.

And man became a living soul. flesh with the blood for the soul.

The Messiah poured out his soul unto death. When the soul dies, the flesh the blood of it (the earthly house of tabernacle) also dies and will corrupt away.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I would say until we are something other than flesh and blood we can not be in the kingdom of God> The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ> I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Just my thoughts on some scriptures.

 

[Yeshua1]

1) Saying I cannot think outside of my own paradigm seem like questioning my cognitive abilities. Personal attacks do not bolster you view, they demonstrate its lack.

2) I said entering the kingdom spiritually occurs when God places us in Christ, and we enter the kingdom bodily when we are resurrected in glorified bodies. So you seem to be finding fault with the view you agree with.

3) So no verse says we must be born anew spiritually. This is fairly "rudimentary." You might take a look at John 3.

4) You are the one introducing "western dualism" into the thread, I was explaining how entering and inheriting are parts of the same salvation.

So again, you are finding fault where none exists, offering personal attacks, and making an effort to derail the discussion. Nothing to write home about.

When we receive the salvation "package" from God at the rebirth, ALL that we are and will be already has happened to God, as he knows that while her ein the ohysical bodies, are part of His Kingdom, and he sees us already glorified and risen in Christ, but to us being in time, that is to us a Future event!

 

[Van]

Questions rather than answers

when do we become part of the Kingdom of Christ?

exact moment we receive jesus as our saviour by faith!

1) Do we "become part of the kingdom of God?"

2) Does receiving Jesus as our savior result in salvation?

Yeshua1, you ask one bogus question after another.

How does a person become part of the kingdom of God.

1) When we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. Outside of Christ, not part of the kingdom of God, in Christ, part of the kingdom of God.

2) When do we "receive" Jesus? When we receive the gospel with Joy? According to Matthew 13, this does not result in salvation. OTOH, when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, then He spiritually places us apart in Christ. This action by God is where we "receive" Jesus, we are placed in Jesus and the Spirit of Christ indwells us, thus we are in Christ and He is in us.

 

[Luke2427]

1) Do we "become part of the kingdom of God?"

2) Does receiving Jesus as our savior result in salvation?

Yeshua1, you ask one bogus question after another.

How does a person become part of the kingdom of God.

1) When we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. Outside of Christ, not part of the kingdom of God, in Christ, part of the kingdom of God.

2) When do we "receive" Jesus? When we receive the gospel with Joy? According to Matthew 13, this does not result in salvation. OTOH, when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, then He spiritually places us apart in Christ. This action by God is where we "receive" Jesus, we are placed in Jesus and the Spirit of Christ indwells us, thus we are in Christ and He is in us.

First of all, I question the appropriateness of the titel of this thread since it has very little to do with what being saved means and instead discusses the nature of the Kingdom.

To be saved is to be rescued from the wrath of God.

As it pertains to the Kingdom- it is the realm of God's happy reign. In other words it is everywhere that God is happily recognized as King.

The Lord's Prayer says that our first prayer request when we pray should be for the earthly expansion of that Kingdom. "Thy Kingdom come (in other words) thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in Heaven (it is done with great cheer in Heaven.)"

The Kingdom is not some future thing- it is here now. It is the point of all that we do in the church.