Being Slain in the Spirit? Part Two

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Luke 9-49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Shouldn't we just follow what Jesus said?

Peace,

Tam

I am pretty sure we can say that those people were imitating - the Word does not say if they were followers or not. Today's "demon busters", I do not believe are imitating, they truly believe they have power over demons aka been given authority over them.

It seems to be a bit of a puzzle to me, however; that the charis venue seems to focus their attention on rebuking satan/demons, when there is really no instruction on that in the letters of the NT. Although Jesus did state casting out demons to the disciples, I think that it has been taken out of context and is used to the detriment of, not the spreading of the Gospel today. My opinion

Perhaps it is the "quick fix" that so many chase after today. I think that with the completion of God's Word, far more can be done to expose and cause the devil to flee, if we spend time in the Word and understand that it is His Word that cleanses, renews, transforms, and eradicates evil.

James 4:6 But He gives greater grace. Because of this it says, "God sets Himself against proud ones, but He gives grace to humble ones." Prov. 3:34
7 Then be subject to God. Resist the Devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, sinners! And purify your hearts, double minded ones!
9 Be distressed, and mourn, and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy into shame.
10 Be humbled before the Lord, and He will exalt you.

ps: I am NOT saying that there is never a time to cast a demon aside, in Jesus Name, when it is clear this is His will - but I think it's overdone to the extreme with little to no discernment - again, my opinion . . .

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
A critical spirit about other Christians who declare they love the Lord is not of the Holy Spirit either. This spirit comes from the evil one along with pastors who "down" other Christian believers. We are told by the Lord to love the brethren.

It does not take brains and since some of you do not have the 'gift of discernment' (as in the gifts of the Spirit) I cannot figure how you can say for sure that Pentecostals have 'seducing spirits.'

This is not rocket science, friends.

my apologies - I DO tend to get rather impatient/critical

clearly, you and I have differing opinions as to the "spirit of the thing". I suspect that you didn't get a chance to read the seek God articles. I think they really give an excellent historical view of the origin of todays "move of God". I realize that not everyone will agree with the writer or with me, actually very few, to be honest.

It is my testimony, however. It is what I found to be the truth because I held what I believed to God's Word. But you are right, having someone tell you that you are under a seducing spirit does lack in tactfulness, so I do apologize for upsetting you. I readily admit to it myself. I have repeated it often. So it's not like I am aiming at you and not at myself. I am the first to admit I was seduced by and lied to by the devil

 

[Ray Berrian]

Tam,

You are right; the Lord did not condemn the actions of the other man who would not join Christ's Apostolate.

There is a big lesson here for all of us as Christians.

Ray

 

[tamborine lady]

eloidalmanutha,

perhaps we should stick with what Jesus said

Luke 9-49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Shouldn't we just follow what Jesus said?

The people you speak of are not against Jesus!

He said if they are not against us, they are for us!

And some people DO have the power to cast out demons, otherwise we would have a lot of people like the 7 sons of Sceva.

Acts 19-14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Selah,

Tam

 

[tamborine lady]

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tamborine lady:

eloidalmanutha said: I truly believed that I was called to be like Tim - that I would have the same kind of ministry. Someone gave me words to that affect once. But God had other plans, may His Name be praised.


Tam says:

Possibly it was God that called you, but "men" had different ideas. so you were never given the chanch? That happens a lot!!

So maybe now you just feel hurt and have decided that God didn't mean it?

Selah,

Tam

I don't think you have been reading my posts. It was NOT God - it was a seducing spirit. Tim does not operate in the power of God. It's the same spirit that is in/on Benny Hinn - not God Benny is into mysticism and nemocracy - that is not God. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I have read your posts, and what I see is a very bitter person, who thinks they are on the right track now.

When it is possible that God did call you, and you were on the right track then.

Peace,


Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
A critical spirit about other Christians who declare they love the Lord is not of the Holy Spirit either. This spirit comes from the evil one along with pastors who "down" other Christian believers. We are told by the Lord to love the brethren.

It does not take brains and since some of you do not have the 'gift of discernment' (as in the gifts of the Spirit) I cannot figure how you can say for sure that Pentecostals have 'seducing spirits.'

This is not rocket science, friends.

No it wasn't rocket science for Jesus:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And nor was it for Paul:
Acts 13:9-10 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

They both had the spirit of discernment, and of love.
DHK

 

[eloidalmanutha]

I am sorry ya'all can't except my apology - it was given in sincerity.

As I had said as a postscript - I DID say that by the will of the Holy Spirit, in Jesus'Name, that demons CAN be set aside. I also said that today, that discernment is lacking in this area. Demon bashing and rebuking to the extreme, as if satan is at fault for our choices and our inherrent bent for evil and addictions, and that he is responsible for all illness and suffering - this is simply not Biblical.

If you look back at my posts, the reason that I say that Tim's work is not of God, is because of the base and foundation of his theology. He may believe he is working in the power of the Holy Spirit, but a deeper look at the tree, will show that it is corrupt - by Biblical standards. This is basic theology and discernment that is sadly lacking in the church.

 

[Bible-boy]

I think some folks need a reminder of the things that we discussed in this thread.

 

[hillclimber]

Ray Berrian, where did you earn your Th.D ?

 

[Pete]

Quotes here are by Ray Berrian to Bible-boy, copied over from Benny Hinn thread

By Ray:
The only thing you have done is to suggest that you have done the proper exegesis and everyone else is doing the eisegesis, or interpreting Scripture wrong.

Bible-boy has done more than suggest that, he and DHK have continually proven it.

By Ray:
This shows how narrow and preverted your view is in straining to say that Christians do not experience the Spirit of God in the same way as in Biblical times. Your view is another Gospel not Pentecostal people.

Who is the one straining? SITSists have been trying to use passages in Bible of non-Christians falling, and even demonic activity, to somehow make their point. The simple sad fact is that there is NO Biblical backing for today's SITSism.

By Ray:
Correct me if I am wrong about your narrow perspective on the deeper life in the Holy Spirit.

You try to escape the spiritual understanding by saying that Saul was unsaved at the time and that John was given a Divine revelation, thus, (you foolishly thin) that this means that every Christian who experiences the Holy Spirit in a fuller way must also reveal a new revelation. Foolishness!

Gnosticism!

What else could this "spiritual understanding" be called that suggests Saul was saved when he fell when a quick look at what the Bible actually says disproves it? Here is part of one of my posts from the first thread with some simple questions on Saul's position at the end that I still haven't seen answered by a SITSian...

By Pete:
Read (again) the conversation between the Lord and Saul in Acts 9:4-5 in whatever translation you wish to name. Then read it again. Don't just continue in your apparent practice of reading the first half of 9:4 about Saul falling and then saying "here endeth the lesson, amen" and closing the Bible. After Saul fell in 9:4 he heard the voice "Saul, why do you persecute me?" Saul's reply was "Who are you, Lord?" "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting"

Did anyone see it this time? Just in case it was missed (again) here it is again:

"Saul, why do you persecute me?"
"Who are you, Lord?"
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting"

Why would Jesus ask Saul why is he persecuting Him? Had Saul started to backslide again already? Why would Saul ask who the Lord was if he knew Him at that stage? Why didn't Saul say like Thomas "My Lord and my God!"?

By Ray:
Did Saul and John both have to have on the same color robe when they were dropped by the overpowering Presence of God Almight? Is this your narrow view of exegesis.

There is no way I could put it better than Bible-boy did in the Benny Hinn thread, so here is that response:

By Bible-boy
My point rgearding those texts is that if you are going to use them as proof texts to justify your experience, then your experience and the text had better line up. Yours examples do not. I do not say that people must receive progressive revelation in order to experience this "deeper life" to which you refer. What I said is that there is no more divine progressive revelation occurring. The canon is closed. Therefore, it does not happen anymore. This is only one facet of the texts that greatly differs from the experiences you are attempting to justify. In fact the only thing that your experiences and these text have in common is the fact that someone fell over. Surely you do not want to tell me that this single commonality is all that is necessary in order to build a doctrinal position.

By Ray:
People have reported to you from various denominations of this experience with the Holy Spirit which proves that He overrides these man made boundaries, when Christ wants us to be one in Him. [John 17:11]. '. . . that Christians may be one, as We are.'

I've also seen the Trinity denied in posts on the Baptist Board by some, so your point is?

By Ray:
Because of your faulty interpretation you cause Christians to have division over truth that is so apparent.

Because of SITSian apparent quasi-Gnosticism, demonstrated in placing experiences above what the Bible says and re-interpretation of any passage they can find to try and justify the experience, I see no choice but to call it a false teaching, speak out against it, and walk out if it comes to any Church I attend.

[ March 09, 2006, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pete,

You said, 'Bible-boy has done more than suggest that, he and DHK have continually proven it.'

I am saying they think they have proven their ideas, but it is only in their dreams. And I mean this with all due respect to our common faith.

In all honesty I do not know what you mean by SITSian.

Falling under the power of the Holy Spirit is not a test of spirituality, but it does happen to some people. The idea of Gnosticism just shows lack of knowledge and lack of Christian charity toward other brethren in Christ, in my opinion.

Some Calvinists also dislike Rev. Finney because he taught a deeper life than his Presbyterian pastor/mentor. Better stop here; this is off the subject.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

Some Calvinists also dislike Rev. Finney because he taught a deeper life than his Presbyterian pastor/mentor. Better stop here; this is off the subject.

You might want to start a thread on Finney. He was a heretic. Here is some information on him:

Finney’s Theology?

One need go no further than the table of contents of his Systematic Theology to learn that Finney’s entire theology revolved around human morality. Chapters one through five are on moral government, obligation, and the unity of moral action; chapters six and seven are "Obedience Entire," as chapters eight through fourteen discuss attributes of love, selfishness, and virtues and vice in general. Not until the twenty-first chapter does one read anything that is especially Christian in its interest, on the atonement. This is followed by a discussion of regeneration, repentance, and faith. There is one chapter on justification followed by six on sanctification. In other words, Finney did not really write a Systematic Theology, but a collection of essays on ethics.

But that is not to say that Finney’s Systematic Theology does not contain some significant statements of theology.

First, in answer to the question, "Does a Christian cease to be a Christian, whenever he commits a sin?", Finney answers:

"Whenever he sins, he must, for the time being, cease to be holy. This is self-evident. Whenever he sins, he must be condemned; he must incur the penalty of the law of God ... If it be said that the precept is still binding upon him, but that with respect to the Christian, the penalty is forever set aside, or abrogated, I reply, that to abrogate the penalty is to repeal the precept, for a precept without penalty is no law. It is only counsel or advice. The Christian, therefore, is justified no longer than he obeys, and must be condemned when he disobeys or Antinomianism is true ... In these respects, then, the sinning Christian and the unconverted sinner are upon precisely the same ground (p. 46)."

Finney believed that God demanded absolute perfection, but instead of that leading him to seek his perfect righteousness in Christ, he concluded that "... full present obedience is a condition of justification. But again, to the question, can man be justified while sin remains in him? Surely he cannot, either upon legal or gospel principles, unless the law be repealed ... But can he be pardoned and accepted, and justified, in the gospel sense, while sin, any degree of sin, remains in him? Certainly not" (p. 57).

Finney declares of the Reformation’s formula simul justus et peccator or "simultaneously justified and sinful," "This error has slain more souls, I fear, than all the Universalism that ever cursed the world." For, "Whenever a Christian sins he comes under condemnation, and must repent and do his first works, or be lost" (p.60).

A DISTURBING LEGACY
DHK

 

[mima]

Hear is a "slain in the spirit" story for you. Once while attending a nondenominational church meeting with a Baptist pastor friend of mine. A pastor from a charismaic church begin to hold a prayer line. Well my Baptist pastor friend says, I'm going to get in line and see what happens. He got in the line and when the charismaic pastor reached out and touched him, down he went with a real bang. He laid there completely out for about eight or 10 minutes and then slowly began to recover and finally got to his knees. At this time the charismaic pastor walke pastor walked back by and gently touched him again and immediately he went back down flat on the floor, out again for about five minutes. Then his wife and I helped him up and into a seat. later when I asked him about this he said, I do not know what happened all I do know is it was not my intention to fall but fall I did, and that's the way it is.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by mima:
Hear is a "slain in the spirit" story for you. Once while attending a nondenominational church meeting with a Baptist pastor friend of mine. A pastor from a charismaic church begin to hold a prayer line. Well my Baptist pastor friend says, I'm going to get in line and see what happens. He got in the line and when the charismaic pastor reached out and touched him, down he went with a real bang. He laid there completely out for about eight or 10 minutes and then slowly began to recover and finally got to his knees. At this time the charismaic pastor walke pastor walked back by and gently touched him again and immediately he went back down flat on the floor, out again for about five minutes. Then his wife and I helped him up and into a seat. later when I asked him about this he said, I do not know what happened all I do know is it was not my intention to fall but fall I did, and that's the way it is.

And this story proves what? Are you saying that the charismatic pastor is/was a dispenser or wielder of the Holy Spirit, that he could direct the power of the Holy Spirit through the touch of his hand?

[ March 09, 2006, 03:48 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[DHK]

Is experience the foundation of truth?
Or is the Bible the foundation of truth?
The Charismatics choose experience over the Bible, and cannot support their experience with the Bible. The deeper one goes into it the more absurd the experiences: barking like a dog, roaring like a lion, etc. Where are such experiences found in the Bible, and where is there a Biblical basis for them?
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bible-boy,

You said, 'And this story proves what? Are you saying that the charismatic pastor is/was a dispenser or wielder of the Holy Spirit, that he could direct the power of the Holy Spirit through the touch of his hand?'

Now you are beginning to understand. The Lord works through certain, sovereignly, chosen people to minister His blessings.

Acts 9:4, Revelation 1:17 and other passages speak Apostolic truth and Divine action that still takes place during this Age of Grace. I realize that some of you brethren think God the Holy Spirit is less potent than during Bible times, but this only shows your lack of spiritual understanding and/or unbelief in this area of your Christian experience.

.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bible-boy,

You said, 'And this story proves what? Are you saying that the charismatic pastor is/was a dispenser or wielder of the Holy Spirit, that he could direct the power of the Holy Spirit through the touch of his hand?'

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Now you are beginning to understand. The Lord works through certain, sovereignly, chosen people to minister His blessings.

Acts 9:4, Revelation 1:17 and other passages speak Apostolic truth and Divine action that still takes place during this Age of Grace. I realize that some of you brethren think God the Holy Spirit is less potent than during Bible times, but this only shows your lack of spiritual understanding and/or unbelief in this area of your Christian experience.

. </font>[/QUOTE]If that is the case then you have another eisegetical hermeneutical problem with your proof texts. In neither one of your proof texts was the Holy Spirit dispensed or weilder by the touch of some human's hand.

Are you going to be so bold as to claim that a man can direct the power of the Holy Spirit of God by the mere touch of his hand? If so, think of what you are saying. The logical conclusion of such a thought is that we can manipulate God (namely the Holy Spirit) thorugh the extension of our hands. Why,... that would make us God (or perphaps "little gods"). Please...

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
In all honesty I do not know what you mean by SITSian.

Hello Ray,

When Pete uses “SITS” in his posts he has simply created an acronym for “Slain In The Spirit.” You know, he is taking the first letter of each word in the phrase. Thus, “SITS” and a SITSian or SITSist would be a person that ascribes to a belief in being slain in the Spirit.

Yours in Christ,

Bible-Boy

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bible-boy,

You said, 'If that is the case then you have another eisegetical hermeneutical problem with your proof texts. In neither one of your proof texts was the Holy Spirit dispensed or weilder by the touch of some human's hand.

Are you going to be so bold as to claim that a man can direct the power of the Holy Spirit of God by the mere touch of his hand? If so, think of what you are saying. The logical conclusion of such a thought is that we can manipulate God (namely the Holy Spirit) thorugh the extension of our hands. Why,... that would make us God (or perphaps "little gods").'

By now you must have enough experience in spiritual matters to know that the Lord does not always work/minister in the same way in reaching people in salvation or in maturing Christians in the things of God.

God does not need a human hand to minister the Holy Spirit into the lives of sinners or saints as we see in the Revelation one passage. The apostles laid their hands on people and they received the Holy Spirit in the N.T., but when I was saved no one touched me. Does this then mean I am not saved? When bishops and other clergy Elders lay their hands on the head of a newly ordained minister it is a blessing and is done because of tradition. The newly ordained man had the Spirit of God long before this event of ordination. Would you agree?

So too, when a person lays his hands on another brother in Christ and the Spirit of God overcomes them in this holy blessing, it does not mean this is the first time that they received the Spirit, but rather than God had something special in store for that one. No one is manipulating nor could they manipulate our Almighty Lord. We are not 'little gods' we are 'sons of God as duly explained in I John 3:2. You and I and all Christians have a very high standing in the Presence of the Father in Heaven. We are one with Him--meaning we are accepted in Christ as though we were one of the Persons of the Godhead. We do not become God but are in true fact, children of God [John 1:12].

A beloved pastor of mine, who is now with the Lord, prayed for people at the altar and my wife went forward to receive his blessing. I could not say what would happen if he prayed over her in this way. But I did mention that she might experience a special blessing of the Spirit on her life. I stood next to her and slightly behind her and if I had not been there she would have fallen under the power of the Holy Spirit. She even felt herself going, if you will. Not every one he laid hands on fell; this is under the sovereign will of the Lord.

If you are a Baptist or from an independent church don't you believe that you are a 'son of God?' If you don't a reading of I John 3:2 is in order and will enlighten you as to your standing/authority in His Presence--wherever you go in your travels.

Just as we all witness for Jesus in a different way, so too, the operations of the Spirit of God take place in unique ways. The indwelling of the Spirit does not always have to be done by the unseen hand of Almighty God. Sometimes His blessings come through other godly men and women who might place their hand on our head. Either way God is in it.

 

[Pete]

By Bible-boy:
When Pete uses “SITS” in his posts he has simply created an acronym for “Slain In The Spirit.”

Yep, thanks B-b, saves me reposting the last time I explained it

It seems Ray misses some things when reading now and then...but anyways...

By Ray:
Falling under the power of the Holy Spirit is not a test of spirituality, but it does happen to some people.

I have never said people are not falling down, just that your attempts to Biblically justify the falling down falls down...

By Ray:
The idea of Gnosticism just shows lack of knowledge and lack of Christian charity toward other brethren in Christ, in my opinion.

As I pointed out in previous post, this alleged "spiritual understanding" delivers an interpretation of a passage of Scripture that ignores what the Bible does say. I can't see how a position like that could be called anything but Gnosticism.

By Ray:
Acts 9:4, Revelation 1:17 and other passages speak Apostolic truth and Divine action that still takes place during this Age of Grace. I realize that some of you brethren think God the Holy Spirit is less potent than during Bible times, but this only shows your lack of spiritual understanding and/or unbelief in this area of your Christian experience.

More of the usual text-twisting and re-interpretation with assistance from "spiritual understanding"


Oh, and I goofed on one batch of QUOTE tags on my previous post, sorry 'bout that all