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Being Slain in the Spirit? Part Two
- Thread starter Bible-boy
- Start date
Yes, but what does this aspect of how the Lord brings people to salvation and matures them in Christ have to do with being SITS (I’m liking Pete’s acronym)?
Please show me a passage of Scripture that clearly demonstrates (without you resorting to eisegesis) that God ministers to sinners in the way you are implying. Likewise, the problem with you attempting to use the Rev. 1 passage to justify the story of a charismatic pastor touching someone and that person falling out because they were SITS is that the text does not say that a human (or anyone) touched John. The personal experience example and the biblical text do not agree. Therefore, you’ll have to find another proof text.
No, but we also have biblical texts that show that people were saved (indwelt with the Holy Spirit) without the laying on of hands by the apostles. So what is your point?
Yes, so what is your point? What does this have to do with SITS?
No one has made that claim so why are you attempting to introduce the idea?
Let’s apply this idea to the example of the charismatic pastor touching the Baptist pastor and then touching him again and the Baptist falling out each time. If God wanted to “bless” the Baptist pastor in this manner (twice) and the Charismatic pastor did not touch him the second time, he would have in effect withheld the “full blessing” of the Holy Spirit from the Baptist. Right? Therefore, what you are saying is that a man can withhold or manipulate the Holy Spirit. This means that the man has control of the Holy Spirit. Who controls the Holy Spirit? God alone controls His Holy Spirit. Therefore, either the man (a Charismatic pastor in this case) is God, or like Hinn says he is a “little god.”
I fully agree that when we are born-again we are adopted as sons of God. However, we do not somehow mysticaly become part of the God-head. Your explanation does not address SITS or defend what Hinn has publicly stated about us being “little gods.” So what is your point?
More subjective personal experience, but you have yet to demonstrate from the objective truth of God’s Word, without resorting to eisegesis, that SITS is in fact a sound and biblical doctrine. So what is your point?
I fully believe that I am a son of God. So I don’t know what you are getting at here.
I agree. However, you have not demonstrated from the objective truth of God’s Word, without resorting to eisegesis, that SITS is in fact one of these blessing or operations of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, until you do so (with eisegesis) I must reject your interpretation and its associated doctrinal position regarding SITS.
[ March 09, 2006, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
tamborine lady
Active Member
Bible Boy said:And this story proves what? Are you saying that the charismatic pastor is/was a dispenser or wielder of the Holy Spirit, that he could direct the power of the Holy Spirit through the touch of his hand?
How many times does it have to be said? No, God directs the Power, the man does not direct the power. Man is the conduit!
Peace,
Tam
Ray Berrian
New Member
Tam,
You are correct again here in your statement above.
I also disagree with Bible-boy.
All sons and daughters of the living God are in a mystical relationship with Jesus our Lord. You may not know you have a mystical relationship through the Spirit of God, but without this you remain unsaved.
This is a true mystical relationship and not like the mystics mega hundreds of years ago who thought they pleased God by sitting on municipal polls away from the sinful world.
You are correct again here in your statement above.
I also disagree with Bible-boy.
All sons and daughters of the living God are in a mystical relationship with Jesus our Lord. You may not know you have a mystical relationship through the Spirit of God, but without this you remain unsaved.
This is a true mystical relationship and not like the mystics mega hundreds of years ago who thought they pleased God by sitting on municipal polls away from the sinful world.
Show me from the Word of God, without resorting to eisegesis, where we see someone being SITS with another human acting as the "conduit" for the power of the Holy Spirit to do the slaying. Without such Scriptural support all you have is a man-made theory.Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Bible Boy said:And this story proves what? Are you saying that the charismatic pastor is/was a dispenser or wielder of the Holy Spirit, that he could direct the power of the Holy Spirit through the touch of his hand?
How many times does it have to be said? No, God directs the Power, the man does not direct the power. Man is the conduit!
Peace,
Tam
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Man is the conduit .....
A conduit is a pipe that is used to allow water to travel from one point to another.
conduit does not fit here.
The Holy Spirit indwells the believer, He does not just pass from one point through people to another point.
A conduit is a pipe that is used to allow water to travel from one point to another.
conduit does not fit here.
The Holy Spirit indwells the believer, He does not just pass from one point through people to another point.
tamborine lady
Active Member
SFC. the power does pass thru! We have the Holy Spirit always with us, but when HE turns on the power for a particular task HE wants us to do,then it goes thru us.
As I have said before, God decides when THE POWER is used. Not man!!
Selah,
Tam
I really don't know whether to
,
In all the passages Ray has been twisting to try and justify SITSism (none of them do) NOT ONE has had the slightest hint of a reference of any form of a pre-incarnate appearance of Benny Hinn. Even if Saul was a Christian at the time (he wasn't) no-one ran out from behind a bush yelling "FILL!" to knock him down. Even if God hadn't given John the vision that became our book of Revelation (He did) no-one swam over to Patmos to knock John down.
God managed quite well enough in displaying His power and revealing Himself back then, but now 2000 years later His age is catching up with Him and He needs conduits?!
I guess this is just yet another one of those things that we will have to add to the "Just because the Bible doesn't say it doesn't mean it isn't there" pile....
Not everyone gets SITS (OBTS Overwhelmed By The Spirit). Some fall out as if they are dead. Some fell backwards. But the scriptures proves that some fell when the Lord showed up. I also believe some fainted from fear (Matt 28:4 for example).
Matt 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
Mark 9:26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Dan 8:26-27 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.
Matt 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
Mark 9:26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Dan 8:26-27 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.
tamborine lady
Active Member
If it was man that decided things, and always was in control of the power of God, then how did the dead man come back to life when he was thrown on the bones of Elisha?
2 Kings-13-21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
Did Elisha suddenly come to life long enough to make it happen? No, he was "dead as a doornail" (to quote an old southern phrase) . Elisha had nothing to do with it, God sent the Power.
_____________________________________
By the way Pete, before you die laughing in your own smug little world, God doesn't always need to use man, He is God after all and He can do things any way He wants.
As for using eisegesis, there is no need, it is being done enough by some well meaning grads of Southern Babtist Seminary(IMOHO). No insult intende, just my obsevation.
Selah,
Tam
Dan 8:27, poor Daniel sick for days.. (..he must have seen this topic..) ..Considering the prophetic vision and interpretation God had just given him (All of Daniel chapter 8) no wonder he felt like that.
This is another passage of God directly revealing His Word with no correlation between SITSism....unless the SITSees will show us what God has given them to write? Won't hold my breath waiting...
Hello Tam,Originally posted by tamborine lady:
As for using eisegesis, there is no need, it is being done enough by some well meaning grads of Southern Babtist Seminary(IMOHO). No insult intende, just my obsevation.
Selah,
Tam
Every time that I have charged that Ray (or anyone else) has engaged in eisegesis I have clearly shown the passage they abused, what they did to abuse that passage, and provided the proper exegesis using sound hermeneutical principles.
Therefore, unless you can reciprocate in the same fashion I expect you to not throw out such an empty accusation, with no proof offered, and run away. Throwing out such an empty accusation is a cheap and unworthy debate tactic and it should not be resorted to by a professing Christian.
Yours in Christ,
Bible-Boy,
Forum Moderator
Oh yeah, I did not go to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. I am a student at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.
...and all nothing to do with SITS
Tam, but in all the Bible passages that have been continually misused by SITSists on these threads there hasn't been a single one where God used a man as conduit to "impart the blessing". You don't think this makes the modern Mr Hinn style line-em-up-and-knock-em-down SITSism just a _tad_ questionable?
Ok, antiSITSists are wrong. Now please show us the passage of Scripture where a man prays for another man who then falls and is caught by a third man. Too tough and a bit cruel? hmmmm, yeah, maybe right, so how about the passage where God gives this blessing to one of His people (not before they are His people) where they didn't directly receive from Him a vision or prophecy that was to be included in the Bible....I'm looking forward to seeing it.
Here's another occasion I won't hold my breath waiting for...
...oh, and I'm not a Southern Babtist Seminary grad, I'm an Aussie Baptist cabbie dumb...and it's too much work to keep this acrostic...oh well...Sunday school teacher.
Dan 8:27, poor Daniel sick for days.. (..he must have seen this topic..) ..Considering the prophetic vision and interpretation God had just given him (All of Daniel chapter 8) no wonder he felt like that.
This is another passage of God directly revealing His Word with no correlation between SITSism....unless the SITSees will show us what God has given them to write? Won't hold my breath waiting...
Where is the scripture to back up your claims that it can't happen?
tamborine lady
Active Member
Bible Boy said:Therefore, unless you can reciprocate in the same fashion I expect you to not throw out such an empty accusation, with no proof offered, and run away. Throwing out such an empty accusation is a cheap and unworthy debate tactic and it should not be resorted to by a professing Christian
Well, I and others have posted how and why it happens, and the rest of you pay no attention. So I'm not going to keep posting it just to have it ignored!
Yes, how about answering Music. Show us scripture that says it can't happen!!
waiting and waiting .....etc-----
Peace,
Tam
Ray Berrian
New Member
Tam,
Bible College and seminary students are still researching all of the spiritual data. This explains a lot. Can't get those ducks to line up right!
Tam, give them time and with the help of the Spirit of God people will not go too far off the track. Even without Bible College an honest evaluation an study will produce spiritual fruit and maturity in Christ.
When you are a student you must question everything an after study come to your own conclusions.
But, listening to just one denominational montra will at times lead into spiritual error. With thousands of denominations obviously they all do not have it right.
Tam, I must review the event of Elisha. Do you have a book and chapter so I can study it? I am not trying to make any points through it; I just need to study that event. It has to be a good study; you wet my appetite to study this. Thanks.
Bible College and seminary students are still researching all of the spiritual data. This explains a lot. Can't get those ducks to line up right!
Tam, give them time and with the help of the Spirit of God people will not go too far off the track. Even without Bible College an honest evaluation an study will produce spiritual fruit and maturity in Christ.
When you are a student you must question everything an after study come to your own conclusions.
But, listening to just one denominational montra will at times lead into spiritual error. With thousands of denominations obviously they all do not have it right.
Tam, I must review the event of Elisha. Do you have a book and chapter so I can study it? I am not trying to make any points through it; I just need to study that event. It has to be a good study; you wet my appetite to study this. Thanks.
tamborine lady
Active Member
I posted it once, but for you Ray, I will post it again:
2 Kings-13-21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
It always amazed me that when the bones of Elisha were touched, the dead man came back to life! Awesome Power!!!
Happy reading.
Tam
Prove otherwise? I have yet to see it.
Matthew 28:2-3 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
--It is always good to read the context isn't it. You would shake and become as a dead man also if you had experienced what they just did--a great earthquake, and then seeing an angel with a very bright appearance roll back the stone. That is enough to cause any to faint and fall to the ground.
There were reports of many that fainted as a result of the large earthquake that the Pakistanis experienced a few months ago. They fainted as a result of experiencing the earthquake (something that they had never experienced before). Why should this be such an extraordinary event that you should attribute it to be "slain in the spirit?" A ridiculous assumption! Next time read the context.
Mark 9:17-18 And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
Mark 9:20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
--He fell on the ground. Is this being slain in the spirit. This is more akin to the Charismatic movment isn't it? Tell the truth now.
Again you failed to read the context. If you were a person possessed with such a violent spirit which caused this boy to:
Mark 9:18 and wherever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth, and wastes away. (WEB)
--you would fall down too. Is this really being slain in the spirit. He fell down out of exhaustion. Use common sense here.
They were just confronted by the Messiah who had just claimed that He was deity by uttering the very words that Jehvah uttered to Moses: the Great "I AM!" They were being confronted by God himself. And they knew it. They were startled and fell backward by this new revelation of God to them. If you were an unsaved soldier and had just been confronted by the Lord himself (in the flesh)you would fall backward too. Again you ignore the context. You have no way of putting yourself in the shoes of those soldiers. What exactly did they see when they heard the words of the Lord Jesus Christ?
Context! Context! Has this happened to anyone before or since Paul had this experience. Paul saw a great light, enough to make his horse buck him off (if he was riding a horse), enough to blind him. The very fact that he was blinded by the light would cause him to fall down. But he saw for at least that time the glorified Saviuor, the one that he had been persecuting. He heard his voice audibly. If this had happened to you, you would have fallen down too-guaranteed. It was not being slain in the spirit. Read the context.
It is said that John was transported to heaven. It does not give a time period of how long John was in heaven, but while there he was given an outline of the rest of the history of mankind. What he saw was awesome and glorious, things that he didn't even have the vocabulary to describe. He was so overcome with emotion that he fell down before this angel, something he shouldn't have done. He wasn't slain in the spirit. If you had this heavenly experience do you think you would have been as strong as John, or would you have fallen down far before that time. I believe the latter would be true. Again, you ignore the context. Has anyone else since the time of John had a similar experience? No!
Typically you ignore context. Daniel also had been given a heavenly vision.
Daniel 8:16-17 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
He was touched by the hand of the angel Gabriel who revealed to him things that were to come. How often does that happen to people. If it happened to you, do you think you might fall down? Daniel was astonished at what was going to happen in the future. It overwhelmed him to the point where he even fainted--slain in the spirit--NO--fainted yes. Get your theology stratight and read the context. The same thing would have happened to you if you had been in Daniel's shoes, and experienced what Daniel experienced. Why do you ignore context?
DHK