Being slain in the Spirit?

[tamborine lady]

StandingforChrist said:This would bring up another question... is it possible that all these 'slain in the Spirit' experiences are caused by excitement of the service and not the Holy Spirit itself?

And couldn't it just as well be that they are so overcome by the Holy Ghost that they pass out?

Funny how some can only see the negetive.

Peace,

Tam

 

[Ray Berrian]

standingfirminChrist,

May our experience of accepting Jesus as Savior be psychological also. Right?! Soon we can explain away anything we want in the Word. And as to the feeding of the 5,000 perhaps someone clandestinely kept bringing in new loaves in or under an apron on their robe. And maybe the dove at the baptism of Jesus was merely added by the writers, to embellish the story. And we already have a medical solution to being overpowered by the Spirit of God. Previously, we have had posters who said that preachers touch the forehead of the people at the altar only after someone from behind touches the persons shoulder, suggesting/psychologically that they will be falling to the floor. Where do the excuses end and when do we let the Word of God stand as written as to I Corinthians 12 & 14?

The best one was the nutty idea that falling forward, to the left or the right is of God but backward is demonic.

.

A previous poster said, 'Excitement causes adrenaline rushes. These can affect people differently.'

The Word says, 'Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits . . . . Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.' If a person believe in the Deity of Christ and trusts in Jesus as Savior, that person is saved. This is the defining moment in a sinners life and this only is what causes a person to be Christian.

.

 

[Pete]

BAH HUMBUG!! Spent a couple of weeks psyching myself up for a huge night in the cab on new years eve shift, and the stupid night was a lot quieter than expected. No screaming slobbering drunks at all....where's the fun in that? Oh well, gets me back to BB earlier, now where was I...

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I am glad we have a brother in the faith who is a cab driver. The Lord has you in your position providentially and I am sure you can touch a lot of people there with the Gospel.

Yeah mate, I think I "have come to royal position for such a time as this" Have had some interesting chats in the cab over the last 13 years. A few times talking with passengers for a hour or so after turning the meter off.

This being said, don't discount too quickly those of us who have the job of preaching and teaching the truths of the Bible. You and others might just learn some new things.

"..............." said the (temporarily ) speechless cabbie...I don't remember the new years eve shift being busy as flat out as boxing day, and it doesn't feel like it fried my brain like boxing day did, I must have worked harder than I thought though because this looks a bit like "Trust me I'm a professional, now sit down in that chair right there and let me show you how it's done!"

Nah, I'm probably just imagining things

I wouldn't tell you how to run your business...

Toto, I've a feeling this isn't just my imagination anymore...

(I've also got a feeling I'll run out of graemlins soon)....

I don't have a problem with people giving me directions, because although being a very experienced, knowledgeable, gifted taxi driver (and so modest and humble with it), even I don't know every street in the transport district, or can keep track of every new restaurant or pub/club, or their name changes or relocations. I would even admit to the possibility that I could misinterpret the street directory....Get the analogy of that previous sentence hmmm

...and we are please when people seriously consider what we teach.

Well you'll be very pleased to hear that I have seriously considered this teaching. Sadly after that serious consideration I now seriously consider that those who practice/promote it don't have a leg to stand on Biblically. To do so they have to do what I did in proving the Biblical reason why Bugs always beats Daffy...(which is about 17 pages ago by now

)

Although....as the slain fans like to bring up John's experience in Revelation to try and justify the practice, perhaps like John some of those being "slain" today have gone on to write new books of the Bible, and the proof verses we are looking for are in one of these currently hidden and/or unaccepted books?

Is it perhaps hidden away in chapter 2 of the 73rd letter of Billy-Bob Smith to his Auntie Doris verses 13-14 (13) And when Peter prayed for John, Andrew ran in from shortstop and caught John when Jesus knocked him down. (14) And the Lord turned to them and said "Yeah, warn everyone to be careful fellas, I might do that now and then."

I go too far with that one? Probably...But it does make the point I hope...For those that haven't looked, there is nothing like the above example in the Bible (except for the one sticky-taped in the back of Billy-Bob Smith's)...

Thankfully I haven't seen any of the BB advocates of this practice do it, but as someone mentioned some even try to use the accounts of the soldiers coming to arrest Jesus, and/or what happened to Ananias and Sapphira as proof...

...and it's bed-time here, been backwards and forwards from chats, sorting out mate's dvd camera, emails, to a bit of this all night. Not finished on this post, but if I save it and don't have chance to get on it tonight I get further behind.

HAHAHA Then I still have to catch up with however many pages of topic after this....ARGH!!

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pete,

You said, 'perhaps like John some of those being "slain" today have gone on to write new books of the Bible.'

This is a ridiculous statement above. Most of us have enough to learn and remember with the books of the Bible we already have been given.

Maybe "Downunder" some of your sects and on to the Bible but not in the states. Nice try. We are not stupid.

I have experienced being 'slain in the Spirit.' It is clearly of the Lord and is a most wonderful experience coming from the Holy Spirit. And no preacher pushed me over nor did anyone have to catch me.

In one portion of Scripture in the N.T. the Bible says that all who were journeying with Saul/Paul fell in the Presence of God the Spirit and that great and brilliant light.

 

[Ray Berrian]

The word is '. . . add on to the Bible but not in the states.'

 

[standingfirminChrist]

My question is this...

If the Bible mentions 31 times people falling to their faces or to their knees in reverence, obedience, or humility, wouldn't it be safe to say that is how God wants us?

There is only one place where people fell backward in the Lord's presence, and that was not because of reverence, humility, or obedience.

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
My question is this...

If the Bible mentions 31 times people falling to their faces or to their knees in reverence, obedience, or humility, wouldn't it be safe to say that is how God wants us?

There is only one place where people fell backward in the Lord's presence, and that was not because of reverence, humility, or obedience.

I hope you are falling on your face or to your knees in reverence , obedience and Humility on a regular basis.
If you want to fall forward instead of backwards go for it.
I however think that if you are falling forward in the presence of God and experiencing God you probably want get upset at anyone that falls in the presences of God regardless of the direction.
While in the p;resence of God you would be concentrating on God rather than on the direction that the other person falls.

 

[Ray Berrian]

There are three N.T. passages as to Saul and John falling under the power and authority of the Spirit. In that the Lord does not tell us which way they fell, it does not matter.

When I worship I never fall forward or backward; I guess I am not as spiritual as you who break your nose every Sunday during your service of adoration falling forward.

I doubt if nearly any of us followed Saul's experience of falling under the power of the Spirit of God when we got saved. And yet we are in the family of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[tamborine lady]

Here's one for ya!! I went to church yesterday, and nobody gave a message in tongues, nobody fell out under the power of God!!

Yet we had a very moving service. Wonderful preaching, prayed for some folks.

And this is a full gospel church!! (hint; God doesn't do the same thing everytime!

He is charge, not us.

Peace,

Tam

 

[Bible-boy]

Hello Folks,

Sorry for not replying sooner. However, I have not been on-line since before Chrsitmas. I see that the discussions have drifted a bit off topic, then returned to the topic, drifted some more, etc...

I'll try to go back a pick up where I left off and see if I can return to my original intent with this thread.

As best as I can tell we have agreed on the following principles:

1. God chose to speak to mankind (by means of His audible voice or Divine visions) for the following reasons:

A. The progressive revelation of Himself to His creation.

B. The progressive revelation of His Word (the Bible).

C. To guide and direct His people.

2. Then we also agreed that points A and C (above) are directly inter-connected to point B (above). Therefore, the progressive revelation of God's Word (the Bible) was the primary reason for God's choosing to speak to mankind.

Now I'll move on to my third question.

3. Is God continuing to progressively reveal His Word (today)?

I would argue that He is not continuing to progressively reveal His Word today for the following reasons:

A. The canon of Scripture is complete/closed.

B. God has fully revealed Himself in His Word and in the person of Jesus Christ (when I say fully I mean as fully as He intends to do so).

C. Therefore, there is no more progressive revelation of His Word.

Can we agree on this point?

[ January 25, 2006, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bible-boy,

Yes, we can agree there is nor will there be more revelations of new truth to His Word--the Bible. The copies of the nearest manuscripts in the Greek that we will ever have or find.

This is not what 'the gift of tongues' and the 'interpretation of tongues' is for today. When this does occur in a service of Divine worship it is a direct revelation of God through two people that uplifts and speaks to His immediate concerns among that particular body of Christians. The interpretation is always uplifting and encouraging for those in attendance.

It may be that the pastor is not speaking to the particular issues and discouragements that the people are going through at that time.

This interpretation is a clear message of reminding us of the great and wonderful Lord that we serve and love. All leave the service revived and reminded of His continued grace and blessings that He lavishly brings into our lives.

Again, no new truth--just encouragement for the coming days and months ahead.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bible-boy,

Yes, we can agree there is nor will there be more revelations of new truth to His Word--the Bible. The copies of the nearest manuscripts in the Greek that we will ever have or find.

This is not what 'the gift of tongues' and the 'interpretation of tongues' is for today. When this does occur in a service of Divine worship it is a direct revelation of God through two people that uplifts and speaks to His immediate concerns among that particular body of Christians. The interpretation is always uplifting and encouraging for those in attendance.

It may be that the pastor is not speaking to the particular issues and discouragements that the people are going through at that time.

This interpretation is a clear message of reminding us of the great and wonderful Lord that we serve and love. All leave the service revived and reminded of His continued grace and blessings that He lavishly brings into our lives.

Again, no new truth--just encouragement for the coming days and months ahead.

Hello Ray,

I’m not trying to address speaking in tongues here in this thread. I am simply trying to establish common ground and agreement on certain Christian beliefs and biblical principals. Once we have reached agreement on these principals they will guide and shape our discussion on “Being slain in the Spirit.” I do have some concerns over some of the things you stated in the quoted material above in light of the fact that you just agreed that there is no more progressive revelation of God’s Word happening. However, now is not the time or place to discuss those issues (space is limited in our current thread and off topic debate eats into our 20 page limit).

As best as I can tell we have agreed on the following principles:

1. God chose to speak to mankind (by means of His audible voice or Divine visions) for the following reasons:

A. The progressive revelation of Himself to His creation.

B. The progressive revelation of His Word (the Bible).

C. To guide and direct His people.

2. Then we also agreed that points A and C (above) are directly inter-connected to point B (above). Therefore, the progressive revelation of God's Word (the Bible) was the primary reason for God's choosing to speak to mankind.

3. There is no more progressive revelation of God’s Word because:

A. The canon of Scripture is complete/closed.

B. God has fully revealed Himself in His Word and in the person of Jesus Christ (when I say fully I mean as fully as He intends to do so).

C. Therefore, there is no more progressive revelation of His Word.

So now we can move on to my next question and hopefully continue to come to agreement.

4. Does God change?

I would argue that God does not change based on the fact that the Bible says, “For I the LORD do not change…” (Mal. 3:6a, ESV). This speaks to God’s immutability. Thomas Aquinas used this idea as the first of his “Five Ways” of proving the existence of God where he refers to God as the unmoved mover or unchanged changer. Basically, God causes change to happen within His creation, but He is never changed. Therefore, when we see God act in a certain way in the Bible it is reasonable for us to expect Him to continue to act in the same fashion (i.e. to not change in His actions or way of acting).

Can we agree on this?

[ January 25, 2006, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[tamborine lady]

There is no more "new" revelation. It is all in the bible.

BUT, there are new insights. Things that have been there all the time, but have not been understood yet.

Look at the book of revelation as proof.

When I was first saved, there were very few who understood anything in it.

Through the years, I have noticed that slowly God has shown different people what different things mean. So He gives us more understanding of what is already there.

As for "slain in the Spirit", I trust that God will choose to open the understanding of others about what it is and what it does.

Selah,

Tam

 

[Ray Berrian]

tamborine lady,

When I had this experience you have named above He autocratically put me down, I did not have a choice.
I did not ask for the experience nor did I seek it.

How about when you first experienced the ministry of the Holy Spirit in this matter, subsequent to being saved? Could you have stopped the experience?

 

[Bible-boy]

4. Does God change?

I would argue that God does not change based on the fact that the Bible says, “For I the LORD do not change…” (Mal. 3:6a, ESV). This speaks to God’s immutability. Thomas Aquinas used this idea as the first of his “Five Ways” of proving the existence of God where he refers to God as the unmoved mover or unchanged changer. Basically, God causes change to happen within His creation, but He is never changed. Therefore, when we see God act in a certain way in the Bible it is reasonable for us to expect Him to continue to act in the same fashion (i.e. to not change in His actions or way of acting).

Can we agree on this?

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

There is no more "new" revelation. It is all in the bible.

BUT, there are new insights. Things that have been there all the time, but have not been understood yet.

Look at the book of revelation as proof.

When I was first saved, there were very few who understood anything in it.

Through the years, I have noticed that slowly God has shown different people what different things mean. So He gives us more understanding of what is already there.

As for "slain in the Spirit", I trust that God will choose to open the understanding of others about what it is and what it does.

Selah,

Tam

Okay... but are you saying that God speaks these new insights and understandings by means of His audible voice or Divine visions (the way He spoke to O.T. Prophets)? If not, then your point does not address what I asked in my question about the progressive revelation of God's Word. Insight to and understanding of the Bible comes through men by means of them being rightly guided by the Holy Spirit. This is not in question.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bible-boy,

You made some good truths by what you said.

God never changes, but His ministrations change whenever He sovereignly desires to make it happen.

We are no longer going to Temple, killing lambs or doves in sacrifice, but we recognize Jesus death on the Cross as our only way of salvation, through trusting in Him as Lord and Savior.

When the presence of His people is no longer here when He comes for His church things will evolve into the Great Tribulation.

In the Kingdom Age of His Divine Theocracy in Jerusalem happens it will be different in some ways under His governance.

God never changes in His Being and attributes, but His way into worship has greatly changed. Now we do not need a priest to stand before the Lord for us. We go directly to the throne of grace.

The Lord never changes; His ministrations do.

Regards,
Berrian

 

[tamborine lady]

Ray,

The only way I could have stopped it would to not trust, and not be willing. But, since I was asking God for whatever He had for me, then no, I could not control what happened.

Bible boy,

You said:but are you saying that God speaks these new insights and understandings by means of His audible voice or Divine visions (the way He spoke to O.T. Prophets)?

No, because that is not the only ways He speaks to people. Have you ever been reading the bible,(a verse you have read time and time again) and suddenly a light goes on, and you see (understand) something that you never saw before?

I call that a new revelation. It's a new revelation to me, because now I understand it.

I think sometimes we don't understand each other because we have different way of expressing the same thing. I think however, God can still give visions and/or an audible voice if He desires to.

Selah,

Tam

 

[Ray Berrian]

Tam,

Yes, I too have had new understanding of Scripture after reading it many times. It appear that at this time we are ready to receive the truth. Some people on theological issues you can show them the Greek, explain the tense and the word background, but if they have something in their head that Aunt Tilly told them years ago they think because she had white hair and was saintly that she knew everything. Over the years that alleged truth as solidified in their mind and it is nearly impossible for them to change an idea.

How some come up with multiple languages theory causes me to smile, if it were not so sad and sorry view.

That is why Paul said there are not many true Fathers in the faith.

[Ray, please remain on topic. If you want to discuss speaking in tongues and other languages please do so in the "Speaking in Tongues" thread.]

[ January 06, 2006, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[tamborine lady]

Amen Ray!!

Matthew 7-13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Woe unto people who seek not the truth!!

Selah,

Tam