Being slain in the Spirit?

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Ray,

The only way I could have stopped it would to not trust, and not be willing. But, since I was asking God for whatever He had for me, then no, I could not control what happened.

Bible boy,

You said:but are you saying that God speaks these new insights and understandings by means of His audible voice or Divine visions (the way He spoke to O.T. Prophets)?

No, because that is not the only ways He speaks to people. Have you ever been reading the bible,(a verse you have read time and time again) and suddenly a light goes on, and you see (understand) something that you never saw before?

I call that a new revelation. It's a new revelation to me, because now I understand it.

Yes, I fully understand and agree that God speaks to us through His Word (the Bible). In fact, I would argue that it is the primary way that God speaks to his people today. Furthermore, what you are talking about has indeed happened and continues to happen to me. However, it is not new revelation. God's truth has been fully revealed in His Word (the Bible). It has been there (in the Bible) all along. This is not in question here. What is "new" (when what you describe happens) is that we finally see and understand something that God said long ago when His Holy Spirit inspired the text to be written. Our coming to see (for the first time) what God has previously revealed in the Bible is in no way a new revelation or the continued progressive revelation of God's Word that resulted in the now completed written Bible. Please don't apply multiple meanings to the terms we are using in this discussion. If we do that we equivocate the meanings of words and terms and this results in confussion and misunderstanding. Thus, we must define our terms and then stick with those definitions throughout the discussion.

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
I think sometimes we don't understand each other because we have different way of expressing the same thing.

This is exactly what I am attempting to avoid by clarifying the terms we are using and then sticking with those defined terms throughout the discussion. So when you see me talking about God's progressive revelation understand that I am strickly talking about how He has revealed Himself to His creation and inspired His fully revealed Word (the Bible) to be written.

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
I think however, God can still give visions and/or an audible voice if He desires to.

Selah,

Tam

I agree that God is fully able to do those things if He so desires. However, what I am trying to do here is get all involved in the discussion to realize that the entire Bible reveals to us how God has acted in times past and that because God does not change (Mal. 3:6) it is more reasonable then not for us to expect Him to continue to act in that same fashion. His ability to speak in His audible voice or give divine visions any time He choses is not in question.

[ January 06, 2006, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bible-boy,

You made some good truths by what you said.

God never changes, but His ministrations change whenever He sovereignly desires to make it happen.

We are no longer going to Temple, killing lambs or doves in sacrifice, but we recognize Jesus death on the Cross as our only way of salvation, through trusting in Him as Lord and Savior.

When the presence of His people is no longer here when He comes for His church things will evolve into the Great Tribulation.

In the Kingdom Age of His Divine Theocracy in Jerusalem happens it will be different in some ways under His governance.

God never changes in His Being and attributes, but His way into worship has greatly changed. Now we do not need a priest to stand before the Lord for us. We go directly to the throne of grace.

The Lord never changes; His ministrations do.

Regards,
Berrian

Hello Ray,

You are correct in that all of those things have changed or will change. However, the things you are describing are earthly (created) things. Simply because they change it does not follow that God has somehow changed.

In reference to the O.T. worship/sacrificial system I would point out that God (then and now) always acted (and continues to act) in love, with mercy and grace, toward His people. Likewise, every aspect of the Temple worship and sacrificial system was Divinely designed to point to Christ and His ultimate sacrifice for us on the cross. Even the Temple High Priest was meant to point to Jesus as our great and only High Priest (Heb. 8:1-13).

We are not talking about how we worship Him as a result of a better, more complete, revelation of Himself to us through His Word and in the person of Christ Jesus. If God had fully revealed the truth about Jesus to the Israelites back in the O.T. they would not have needed a priest to stand in the gap for them either. However, during the O.T. period it was not yet the "fullness of time" for the revealtion and incarnation of Christ Jesus (Gal. 4:4). The point is that God never changes according to Malachi 3:6. Can we agree that God never changes?

[ January 06, 2006, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Can we come to agree that God never changes?

 

[Ray Berrian]

The Apostle Paul could have easily spoken of his conversion as being 'slain in the Spirit' as explained in Acts 9:4; Acts 22:7;

Peter experienced this in Acts 10:10 being in a trance.

In 10:43-*46 on this occasion they spoke in 'glossalia.' This, however, is not required to be saved/or filled with the Holy Spirit.

I think it was Paul in the Temple who was in a trance in Acts 22:18.

There is also another passage, though I cannot find it now, where all who travelled with Saul fell because of the mighty power of the Holy Spirit.

So what happened in Jesus' time on earth is still happening to some of us here in the 20th and 21st century. He, the Holy Spirit is no someone who you can stop if he decides to slay you in the Spirit. So when this happens with Benny Hinn, it is not psychological as some foolishly think.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Pete,
You said, 'perhaps like John some of those being "slain" today have gone on to write new books of the Bible.'

This is a ridiculous statement above. Most of us have enough to learn and remember with the books of the Bible we already have been given.

hmmmm.....so those "slain" recipients here haven't written their own books of the Bible then I guess that means that their experience was not like John's then and we can discount him as a poster boy boy for the practice now huh?

(Billy-Bob Smith will be disappointed.. )

We had enough fun with Paul on last dance with this one, but oh well for a quick reminder...Paul wasn't Christian when he fell. Acts 9:5 "Who are you, Lord?"

I know Ezekiel is rarely mentioned in these discussions because his behaviour is most embarrassing. In Ezekiel 1:28 he has the vision and falls facedown. In 2:1 the voice tells him to stand up, in 2:2 the Spirit raised him to his feet..oopsie..

I have experienced being 'slain in the Spirit.' It is clearly of the Lord and is a most wonderful experience coming from the Holy Spirit. And no preacher pushed me over nor did anyone have to catch me.

That's right, I keep forgetting, those promoting it here have experienced it! Well that's different, we all know experience is the ultimate authority.

But yeah, now I come to think of it it must be from the Lord, it makes all who received it dive into the Bible......Trouble is when they're in there they desperately Scripture-twist their hearts out to try make the Bible fit the experience. If they need to do that sort of Bible-bending to support it there is something SERIOUSLY wrong.

That's about it for this time. In my next exciting episode I might quote from mum's experience with the garbage.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pete, from down under,

You sure have enough Scripture to denounce that I have given above. Go for it.

The Scripture is the final determiner of authority. Read above. God, Scripture and Christian experience.

No one is given the right to add to the Bible, but we sure have the responsibility to accept what is in black and white.

You might have to come to the conclusion that I still live with and it is there are some people who are closer to the Lord than I am. To those plus the weak He gives His gifts of the Holy Spirit, if you believe in Him and said gifts to the person and church.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I lay down a challenge that I presented earlier. To those who practice the 'slain in the Spirit' routine, I challenge you, don't catch that one who is falling. If the Spirit is in it that one will not get hurt, nor will that person be laying on the floor in such a manner that is indecent.

After all, if it indeed is the work of the Holy Spirit, are you not hindering that work by catching the person?

 

[Ray Berrian]

standingfirminChrist,

You said, 'I lay down a challenge that I presented earlier. To those who practice the 'slain in the Spirit' routine, I challenge you, don't catch that one who is falling. If the Spirit is in it that one will not get hurt, nor will that person be laying on the floor in such a manner that is indecent.

After all, if it indeed is the work of the Holy Spirit, are you not hindering that work by catching the person?'

'Apparently you are our sex warden. People's minds should be focused on God rather than on a woman's hemn length after they are 'slain in the Spirit.' Notice, for example, in Benny Hinn's crusades often women will wear slacks.

It is sacreligious to speak of the things of the Holy Spirit as being practicing the 'slain in the Spirit' routine. There is nothing routine about God the Holy Spirit. At that rate we should not got to church every Sunday lest this become a routine.

I remember while standing at an altar with my wife that a woman fell out under the power of the Spirit and she did not hurt herself and she was probably in her late 50's age wise.

It neither hurts or helps the working of God if a person is caught or not caught as they fall under the power of Almighty God.

This experience only happened to me once in my 51 years of being a Christian. For other saints it happens more frequently.

 

[Bible-boy]

Before we can rightly discuss what happens, how it happens, when it happens, etc. We must first determine if it happens. However, we cannot do that until we establish common ground regarding our reading, understanding, and interpretation of the Scriptures. Therefore, we must first agree on certain principles. I am trying to bring about such agreement in this thread.

Now, can we please return to my line of questions and try to reach agreement?

The last point to which we have not yet come to full agreement is: God never changes. What say you? Can we agree that God never changes?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Correct, Bible-boy. God changes not.

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
I lay down a challenge that I presented earlier. To those who practice the 'slain in the Spirit' routine, I challenge you, don't catch that one who is falling. If the Spirit is in it that one will not get hurt, nor will that person be laying on the floor in such a manner that is indecent.

After all, if it indeed is the work of the Holy Spirit, are you not hindering that work by catching the person?

Last Sunday I didn't catch a lady. (for one I didn't know she was falling cause I was praying with my eyes closed ) I was told she hit the metal chair in front of me then bounced of it and fell into me (this is when I opened my eyes)and slid down the front of my leg. BTW, This lady is slighly bigger than I am (I'm 140 lbs) so just to say my shin felt like it had a rug burn on it right after it happened. (My skirt was a rough crinkly material also.) I checked her to make sure she was alright right after she went down also. When I seen she was ok I asked the Lord to bless her. Thats when the rug burn pain left me. BTW, later when comming home from church I checked it and no burn, no scratch, no bruise not even so much as redness was there. Also after she came up off the floor we questioned her futher if she was ok (just to be sure she didn't do any injury to herself). She said she was blessed, so I take that as she was alright.

But to be blunt..... even with this testamony from someone who was a witness to it, some will still flubb it off as just another freak happening.

 

[Bible-boy]

Again, we have yet to come to full agreement on the point of whether or not God changes. If our charismatic friends fail to respond to this question our discusssion can go no further and I will have to close this thread. I am particularly interested in obtaining agreement with Ray on these issues for a couple of reasons:
1. This thread is based upon a conversation that he started in another thread.
2. He holds an advanced degree in Theology.

So again I ask, can we come to agreement on the fact that God never changes according to Mal. 3:6?

Yours in Christ,

Bible-Boy

 

[music4Him]

God never changes but has He ever done new things through the years? Starting at the garden till now?

 

[Ray Berrian]

In relation to what the Prophet Malachi was saying yes He does not change toward those believers. He is faithful by way of covenant. But we notice God did chastise them.

In another sense God does change as to His methods in that at one time He used the Aaronic Priesthood, the animals sacrifices, the Law, and now the perfections of His grace given to all who truly believe and trust in Him.

My answer is yes, He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. As to His Being He does not change and we well know He is eternal.

As Christians He loves us when we obey Him; if we begin to backslide that love takes on a new blend through His angry discipline. [Hebrews chapter 12].

I hope I have covered the areas you are interested in discussing.

 

[Bible-boy]

Okay Ray, I agree. The way we (His people) approached and worshiped Him changed from the OT to the NT based upon His full revelation of His Word and the person of Christ Jesus. However, because the way we approached and worshiped Him changed over time due to His progressive revelation of Himself and His Word does not in any way establish that He has somehow changed.

Also His discipline of His children does not mean that He has changed either. He still loves His own and His discipline is based upon His love, grace, and mercy toward us. He always seeks to reconcile and restore us to right relationship with Him.

I take it that we have come to agree that God never changes. Therefore, what we see Him doing throughout the Scriptures is what we can reasonably expect Him to continue doing throughout human history and throughout eternity.

 

[Bible-boy]

As best as I can tell we have agreed on the following principles:

1. God chose to speak to mankind (by means of His audible voice or Divine visions) for the following reasons:

A. The progressive revelation of Himself to His creation.

B. The progressive revelation of His Word (the Bible).

C. To guide and direct His people.

2. Then we also agreed that points A and C (above) are directly inter-connected to point B (above). Therefore, the progressive revelation of God's Word (the Bible) was the primary reason for God's choosing to speak to mankind.

3. There is no more progressive revelation of God’s Word because:

A. The canon of Scripture is complete/closed.

B. God has fully revealed Himself in His Word and in the person of Jesus Christ (when I say fully I mean as fully as He intends to do so).

C. Therefore, there is no more progressive revelation of His Word.

So now we can move on to my next question and hopefully continue to come to agreement.

4. God never changes (Mal. 3:6; Heb. 1:12). Therefore, what we see Him doing throughout the Scriptures is what we can reasonably expect Him to continue doing throughout human history and throughout eternity.

Now on to the the next question and hopefully the next point of agreement.

5. Can we agree, based upon Gen. 2:1-3 and Rev. 22:18-19, that when God finishes something He ceases to continue doing that thing?

A. God has finished revealing Himself through His Word and in the person of Jesus Christ.

B. The canon of Scripture is complete and closed.

c. Therefore, God has ceased to speak to mankind (for the time being) by means of His audible voice and/or Divine visions (the way He spoke to the OT Prophets and some of the NT Apostles). I say "for the time being" because I am sure He will speak to us when we are in His presence in heaven.

Can we agree on this point and its three associated sub-points?

[ January 25, 2006, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

I agree with everything except I do not believe that God has limited Himself in expressing His purposes and will through not giving people 'visions' or 'spiritual dreams.'

The one vision and one dream that I had over the many years, did, however, agree with what the Bible tells us.

I do not talk about to people of any kind except spiritual Christians, some of who have had similar encounters from Him. It seems wise not to reveal to sinners or non-spiritual people these things, because they might conclude that I were off balance in my mind. And even in some cases good Christians do not believe these things happen to Christians.

Both times I was training to become a pastor and the dream and the vision affirmed the reality of Hell and of the evil one. I believe He knew I should understand who we are up against, when we preach the Gospel and try to serve Him in the church.

Bible-boy I don't believe in adding to the Word of God. I have had other Christians tell me of their experiences in related areas of their lives, similar to my experiences. Scripture must be our only guide for faith and practice!

I do not look for these kinds of revelations again in my life time, but if He ministers them--I have no power to stop His move on my life.

These experiences happened when I was about age 21-24. I was taught there was a Hell and Satan, but my encounters really made me get serious about leading people to Jesus for salvation and eternal life.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I agree with everything except I do not believe that God has limited Himself in expressing His purposes and will through not giving people 'visions' or 'spiritual dreams.'

The one vision and one dream that I had over the many years, did, however, agree with what the Bible tells us.

I do not talk about to people of any kind except spiritual Christians, some of who have had similar encounters from Him. It seems wise not to reveal to sinners or non-spiritual people these things, because they might conclude that I were off balance in my mind. And even in some cases good Christians do not believe these things happen to Christians.

Both times I was training to become a pastor and the dream and the vision affirmed the reality of Hell and of the evil one. I believe He knew I should understand who we are up against, when we preach the Gospel and try to serve Him in the church.

Bible-boy I don't believe in adding to the Word of God. I have had other Christians tell me of their experiences in related areas of their lives, similar to my experiences. Scripture must be our only guide for faith and practice!

I do not look for these kinds of revelations again in my life time, but if He ministers them--I have no power to stop His move on my life.

These experiences happened when I was about age 21-24. I was taught there was a Hell and Satan, but my encounters really made me get serious about leading people to Jesus for salvation and eternal life.

Okay Ray...

The dreams or visions that you had simply confirmed what God had already revealed in His Word regarding a literal hell and the Devil. However, according to your story the dreams were not for the purpose of God's progressive revelation of Himself to His creation, or for the progressive revelation of His Word (the primary purposes for which He spoke to the OT Prophets and the NT Apostles).

Remember, when I am talking about God speaking in His audible voice or by Divine visions I am talking about God's progressive revelation of Himself and His Word. We have already agreed that God is no longer progressively revealing Himself or His Word. He has already finished doing so through the Bible (complete closed canon) and in the person of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, when a Christian has such a dream it must line up with the already revealed teachings of Scripture. If it does not do so we must reject the dream (and its interpretation) as invalid and false.

 

[Bible-boy]

As best as I can tell we have agreed on the following principles:

1. God chose to speak to mankind (by means of His audible voice or Divine visions) for the following reasons:

A. The progressive revelation of Himself to His creation.

B. The progressive revelation of His Word (the Bible).

C. To guide and direct His people.

2. Then we also agreed that points A and C (above) are directly inter-connected to point B (above). Therefore, the progressive revelation of God's Word (the Bible) was the primary reason for God's choosing to speak to mankind.

3. There is no more progressive revelation of God’s Word because:

A. The canon of Scripture is complete/closed.

B. God has fully revealed Himself in His Word and in the person of Jesus Christ (when I say fully I mean as fully as He intends to do so).

C. Therefore, there is no more progressive revelation of His Word.

4. God never changes (Mal. 3:6; Heb. 1:12). Therefore, what we see Him doing throughout the Scriptures is what we can reasonably expect Him to continue doing throughout human history and throughout eternity.

5. When God finishes something He ceases to continue doing that thing (based upon Gen. 2:1-3 and Rev. 22:18-19).

A. God has finished revealing Himself through His Word and in the person of Jesus Christ.

B. The canon of Scripture is complete and closed.

C. Therefore, God has ceased to speak to mankind (for the time being) by means of His audible voice and/or Divine visions (the way He spoke to the OT Prophets and some of the NT Apostles).

Now on to the next question and hopefully agreement.

6. Can we agree that God's Word (the Bible) is our sole and final authority for all doctrinal positions?

I assume that we already agree on this based on Ray's previous statements such as:

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Scripture must be our only guide for faith and practice!

So do we have agreement here?

[ January 25, 2006, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by music4Him:
God never changes but has He ever done new things through the years? Starting at the garden till now?

Of course, every time God has divinely interceded into the normal course of human events it has been something new to us (but not new to Him). However, the point is that because God never changes what we see Him doing throughout Scripture we can reasonably expect Him to continue doing throughout human history and for all eternity.