Being slain in the Spirit?

[standingfirminChrist]

Ray,

The Bible does not say that the Apostle John who saw Christ and '. . . fell at His feet as dead' fell backwards.

As a matter of fact, if you ever watch police investigations on television, you may find something very interesting, many are found dead on their faces by the police.

So using 'fell at his feet as a dead man' is not concrete proof of falling backward when accepting a touch from the Lord.

 

[Ray Berrian]

In particular 'testing the spirits' has been widely used by unloving people to make other brethren into pagans or goofy people. The purpose of the Apostle John in I John 4:1-3 was so that the church can determine who is saved and who are unbelievers. This was a litmus test. Anyone who truly believes in Jesus Christ in his or her mind, spirit and soul--is born again.

 

[Ray Berrian]

standingfirminChrist,

Whether a person falls to the left, right, forward or backward is not important, though, unbelieveably some try to make an issue out of this.

I think these people need to 'get a life' or they should sit and talk with a person who has experienced these things from the Lord. Maybe, they would not be as critical and might even find out they have not experienced everything that He is willing to give to His people.

 

[Ray Berrian]

standingfirminChrist,

You said, 'But I will not lie to the people and make them to believe something that is not in God's Word.'

Your view is your understanding of the Word of God, no one can deny this.

Apparently, you were not used by laying hands on other people--in this experience of people 'falling out under the power of the Holy Spirit.' Is this a true statement? Am I being fair to you by what I am saying?

At least I would be curious if you ever personally experienced this phenemnon of falling under the power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes or No will work for me.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Ray, I have fell many times. To my knees and to my face. I have come up from those experiences humbled and also full of joy knowing Christ had touched me.

 

[DHK]

Let us break bread together on our knees, (on our knees)
Let us break bread together on our knees. (on our knees)
When I fall on my knees with my face to the rising sun,
O Lord, have mercy on me.
(an African-American Spiritual)

The authors of these age old Negro spirituals probably never heard the term "slain in the spirit." Nor did they fall on their backs:

'With their feet to the open air
Crying, O God have mercy,
In my despair.'

As present Charismatics might be prone to sing.
DHK

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Great God, how infinite art Thou!
What worthless worms are we!
Let the whole race of creatures bow,
And pay their praise to Thee.

Isaac Watts 1707

 

[Ray Berrian]

standingfirminChrist,

You said you were brought up in Pentecostalism and were ordained in this branch of the Christian church.

Can you give us a yes or no as to whether you have fallen out under the power of the Holy Spirit? By this I mean were you unable to get up, until this experience was over?

Obviously, you do not have to answer this. I thought maybe you missed my question in the previous post.

It sounds like you were telling us that your worship was a voluntary kneeling in the Presence of the Lord. This too, is a wonderful thing. Why? Because the Lord always values our worship and adoration of Himself.

A brother in Christ,
Ray

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

Can you give us a yes or no as to whether you have fallen out under the power of the Holy Spirit? By this I mean were you unable to get up, until this experience was over?

Unable to get up? No. Anyone who has experienced such is dabbling in the occult. The Bible teaches that we need to have control of our minds at all times. If you are under the power of some other influence you are dealing with the occult. God throws no such constraint that over-rules your mind and body. If fact he commands us to be in control of our minds and bodies at all times. If you are not, one might rightly assume that you have given your body over to the control of demons.
Those who came under the control of other powers in the Bible were those who were demon-possessed; not Christians.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

2 Corinthians 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
DHK

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
standingfirminChrist,

You said you were brought up in Pentecostalism and were ordained in this branch of the Christian church.

Can you give us a yes or no as to whether you have fallen out under the power of the Holy Spirit? By this I mean were you unable to get up, until this experience was over?

I have, as I said above, fell to the floor through the divine moving of the Holy Spirit upon me. As I said before, it was always to my knees or to my face. And yes, I was unable to get up for several minutes each time.

It sounds like you were telling us that your worship was a voluntary kneeling in the Presence of the Lord. This too, is a wonderful thing. Why? Because the Lord always values our worship and adoration of Himself.

Although I have bowed many times under my own volition, these times I know it was the Spirit that took me to my knees or to my face.

Thy fellowservant,
Ron

 

[Mexdeaf]

I thought 'being slain in the Spirit' is what happened to Ananias and Sapphira!!

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

I just want to interupt here to issue a warning to any who are just reading or participating in this thread.

This thing smack of mind control. You are being led to a particular destination, with very little wiggle room.

Remeber, line upon line and precept upon precept can also be used to lead you to the wrong conclusion.

Please, think before you leap.

Selah,

Tam

Hello Tam,

Is there one (or some) of the points/principles that Ray and I have agreed upon that causes you concern? If so, what is the concern? Each of the principles (with the exception of number 9) we discussed have been solid and biblical. They have been widely accepted by traditional orthodox Christians for centuries. Additionally, point number 9 is a tried and ture point of logic. The law of non-contradiction has been used and trusted by the greatest thinkers of the western world since the days of Aristotle (including great Christian scholars such as Augustine and Thomas Aquinas). I am sorry that you feel like you need more "wiggle room." Generally, when one feels the need for "wiggle room" in a Theological discussion it is because they are uncomfortable with the facts and biblical truth that is being presented. Likewise, there is no "mind control" here. You are free to think whatever you want. Just be prepared to defend your thoughts and positions when any error in your human thinking may be confronted with biblical truth.

[ January 27, 2006, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Now can we please get back on topic and come to agreement on point number 9? You all have eaten up almost our entire 20 page limit and we still have not come to full agreement.

As a Moderator of this forum I am asking you all not to high-jack the thread any further with anecdotal discussions. Please save all that until we have come to agreement on the 9 points/principles that I have presented. Otherwise, I will be forced to close this thread.

9. In logic the law of non-contradiction judges as false any proposition “P” asserting that both proposition “Q” and its denial, proposition “not-Q,” are true at the exact same time and in the exact same respect. In the words of Aristotle, "One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time."

Therefore, during the course of our future discussions in this thread it would be a violation of the law of non-contradiction to say that one of the points/principles to which we have agreed is both true and untrue in the same respect and at the same time. Furthermore, we agree that any violation of the law of non-contradiction makes our entire line of related argumentation invalid and/or false. Can we agree on point number 9?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

I just want to interupt here to issue a warning to any who are just reading or participating in this thread.

This thing smack of mind control. You are being led to a particular destination, with very little wiggle room.

Remeber, line upon line and precept upon precept can also be used to lead you to the wrong conclusion.

Please, think before you leap.

Selah,

Tam

Your post is very inflammatory, and certainly not accurate.
"Mind control??" Your very suggestion of such implies that either "we" or Bible-Boy in particular are involved in a cult. Or does that go for all Baptists? Do Baptists practice mind control such as the Moonies do? That is the accusation that is being made by you. I think that warrants an apology.

"Being led to a particular destination" Yes, that is right. Bible-boy has set forth one Biblical principle after another which most have agreed to. He has done exactly what the Bible has commanded us to do:

Isaiah 28:9-10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

What does the Bible teach here? If you want to learn doctrine, and not simply be fed milk, you must be taught precept by precept, line upon line. Bible Boy has done a good job of that. If you have disagreed with anything that he has said you have ample opportunity to say so. But slander will not be tolerated. To white-wash us with the characteristics of a cult is, when you are a guest of this board both insulting, and quite out of place. I think you should know better.

If the line upon line... has led one to the wrong conclusion as you suggest, then come out and say it. Don't infer it. You are acting as if you are the one with the hidden agenda. Is this becoming of all Charismatics or just you?
Tam, I would think better behaviour of you is in order.
DHK

 

[Bible-boy]

Much of the available 20 page space limit in this thread has been eaten up, hi-jacked, by discussion of speaking in tongues and debate over Benny Hinn etc. Therefore, I am going to use my moderator's edit function to delete all off-topic posts that address speaking in tongues or Benny Hinn debates.

I say again, if you want to discuss speaking in tongues either start a new thread or post in one of the existing "Speaking in Tongues" threads. If you want to debate over Benny Hinn start a thread for that purpose.

I will start deleting the off-topic posts within the next 24 hours in case anyone would like to make a personal copy of their posts before they are removed.

Yours in Christ,

Bible-Boy,
Forum Moderator

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

Your reference to the occult and being controlled by demons is highly offense to we who have experienced the overpowering Presence of the Holy Spirit. Scaring your Baptist friends and new believers may make an impression on them but it does not rock our boat.

Personally, when this happened to me in Bible College I was deep in prayer to the Lord and knew and understood each word {in English} of the prayer that I was praying. All the time of this experience I knew what was happening to me as I prayed. If it were a medical problem by dorm room friends would have called 911. If you would have been there that is exactly what you would have done. But see the men around me knew about how the Spirit of God can overtake a person who loves Jesus. Understand, they were not scripted Christians bought up in a denomination that deny the 'gifts of the Holy Spirit,' thereby quenching the Holy Spirit of God [I Thessalonians 5:19 & Ephesians 4:30].

As other brethren have told you and others, if this happens to you--you will never be foolish enough again to make fun of the things of God.

You repeated denials of this truth shows you shallow view of Scripture and lack of spiritual depth in the things of the Lord.

If I were to have told you that an egg was a lollypop since you were a child and kept you in a closed society, you would still thing when you saw an egg, that is surely had to be a lollypop.

Talking now as to whether the 'gifts of the Spirit' are until the Second Coming of Christ to defeat His enemies, shows that you are still thinking. Thinking is a good thing when you do not delete parts of the N.T. because someone told you this years ago

.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Nevertheless, the same God who gives the saints these experiences is the same as the One Who drew close to Saul in the form of a bright light. The result is the same, two seconds before Paul was saved or whether it is a subsequent spiritual experience.

Ray, you (and others included) honestly can't see the HUGE difference that those "two seconds" make when (ab)using the passage in attempts to justify your experience?

The event is either as you like to suggest, the brand new baby Apostle Paul having a "Betty Botter bought some butter yabba-dabba-do time..." Or it is the persecutor of the Church receiving a wake up call from the Head of the Church he is persecuting.

Read (again) the conversation between the Lord and Saul in Acts 9:4-5 in whatever translation you wish to name. Then read it again. Don't just continue in your apparent practice of reading the first half of 9:4 about Saul falling and then saying "here endeth the lesson, amen" and closing the Bible. After Saul fell in 9:4 he heard the voice "Saul, why do you persecute me?" Saul's reply was "Who are you, Lord?" "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting"

Did anyone see it this time? Just in case it was missed (again) here it is again:

"Saul, why do you persecute me?"
"Who are you, Lord?"
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting"

Why would Jesus ask Saul why is he persecuting Him? Had Saul started to backslide again already? Why would Saul ask who the Lord was if he knew Him at that stage? Why didn't Saul say like Thomas "My Lord and my God!"?

I have noted the Scriptural proof of this experience above while many of you like to deny the Word of God in this part of Scripture.

Ray, others and myself have noted what slain advocates claim as Scriptural proof for the experience, and have pointed out on each passage you try to use the things you leave out (like Saul not being Christian at the time of his experience, and John writing Revelation after his.) Really, who is denying what now? Compare what the Bible actually says against what you want it to say.

Those of us who have experienced this experience in the Holy Spirit, really know the difference between this and a medical problem.

Rightttt...As did my mother...But as Bible-boy asked I'll stay off the anecdotal...

You have no idea unless you have been 'slain in the Spirit.'

Now we are getting back to the experience over the Word of God Ray

Medical problems and this spiritual connection to God are poles apart.

This "connection to God" and Biblical dishonesty seem to be magnets for each other...

By Ray to DHK in recent post:
You repeated denials of this truth shows you shallow view of Scripture and lack of spiritual depth in the things of the Lord.

Anyone for Gnosticism?


(And I agree with all points so far Bible-boy)

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

[qb] Your reference to the occult and being controlled by demons is highly offense to we who have experienced the overpowering Presence of the Holy Spirit. Scaring your Baptist friends and new believers may make an impression on them but it does not rock our boat.

Can you say with 100% surety that it was the power of the Holy Spirit? How do you know? Satan imitates such things too. What makes you think it was the Holy Spirit and not a demon?

Personally, when this happened to me in Bible College I was deep in prayer to the Lord and knew and understood each word {in English} of the prayer that I was praying. All the time of this experience I knew what was happening to me as I prayed. If it were a medical problem by dorm room friends would have called 911. If you would have been there that is exactly what you would have done. But see the men around me knew about how the Spirit of God can overtake a person who loves Jesus. Understand, they were not scripted Christians bought up in a denomination that deny the 'gifts of the Holy Spirit,' thereby quenching the Holy Spirit of God [I Thessalonians 5:19 & Ephesians 4:30].

You mean the others, like yourself, also believed in mystical experiences like the Islamic pirs, and like all good gnostics you all believe that experience triumphs over the Word of God.

As other brethren have told you and others, if this happens to you--you will never be foolish enough again to make fun of the things of God.

I don't make fun of the Word of God. I seriously warn those that value experience more than the Word of God, that claim to be gnostics--having knowledge that others don't have because of their experience--knowledge outside the Word of God, and stemming from their experience. This is heresy.

You repeated denials of this truth shows you shallow view of Scripture and lack of spiritual depth in the things of the Lord.

What truth have I denied? You had an experience. I don't deny that. Was it according to the principles set down in God's Word. I doubt it. It goes directly contrary to what God has said in Heb.1:1. God does not speak to us in the experience-oriented way that he spoke to the Old Testament prophets, but rather he speaks to us in this day and age through his Son, Jesus Christ, as revealed through His Word.

Talking now as to whether the 'gifts of the Spirit' are until the Second Coming of Christ to defeat His enemies, shows that you are still thinking. Thinking is a good thing when you do not delete parts of the N.T. because someone told you this years ago .

The Gifts of the Spirit have ceased. Search the Scriptures and see. The trouble is, you won't search the Scriptures because of your gnostic approach to the Scriptures. You put experience above the Word of God. It must be true because you have had the experience. But you cannot prove your experience is of God or the devil, can you? You have no objective way to do that.
Now get back on track and answer Bible-Boys questions on whether or not you agree with all that he has set forth for you.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

I justification by faith mysticism also or is it part of your Gnostic heresy theory?

And as to proving anything--you cannot prove that you are sitting in Canada, nor can I prove I am sitting in Hellertown, Pennsylvania. Especially, a philosopher might argue the above.

Most of what Christians believe is a matter of faith, though we contend that we have been justified in the eyes of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

You either believe that Saul and the Apostle John fell because of the mighty power and Presence of the Holy Spirit or you do not believe in these historical and spiritual records for us to read and learn.

You have made a choice, but it is not irrevocable.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pete,

Everyone knows the Scripture of I Corinthians 12-14 is the precedent and is the final authority over most Christian experiences.

But when you believe that God is true--you will not limit the ways that the Lord deals with His people--and yet always within the framework of His most holy Word--the Bible.

While I have given you in former posts--Scriptural proof of the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, you gentlemen have given no proof that say these experiences among some Christians are not genuine. Neither have you given Scripture that they are Gnostic or any of the 'little wheelbarrows' that you push along to contain your error and deceptions.