I doubt you will find anyone on here who does not believe God can do what He wishes.
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Belief in the Absolute Sovereignty of God and the Absolute Depravity of Man
- Thread starter Rhetorician
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- depravity sovereignty
utilyan,
Dear Brother, I think if you read the Reformers more and the Reformed Puritan English more and the Reformed Particular Baptists more with understanding; you would come to find realize that God's "kindness, love, and compassion" are all displayed as subordinate to and flowing out of His Glory. God's receiving his Glory is His highest priority.
That Glory is now in the face of our Lovely Lord Jesus and in His Gospel. Hallelujah!! Praise to the Lamb! What a Christmas worship moment it is for to ponder and type this today of all days. Worthy is the Lamb and worthy of praise, and laud, and honor. For the Lord God omnipotent reigns!!
rd
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Yes, which would mean He can do anything not against his nature.
That goes without saying.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
This sounds backward to me, I mean from a biblical perspective. Would they say this of the sun and stars as well?
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Yes, for you and for me, I'm sure that is true. However, I have found that this does not hold true in general. Some of the most obvious things to me are anything but to some others.
I don't find a way in which to differentiate these things. God's glory is these attributes and actions and these attributes are, when demonstrated/revealed, also bring Him glory.
Yes.
I really had to research this one
Scripture states God's Glory IS Kindness, Love, and Compassion. Because God is love, not merely an attribute. The best proof is God's love is alive namely Jesus Christ who is the glory of God.
Here Moses requests to see the Glory of God:
Exodus 33
18Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!” 19And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”
Exodus 34
5The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD. 6Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORDGod, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”
Numbers 14
19“Pardon, I pray, the iniquity of this people according to the greatness of Your lovingkindness, just as You also have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.”
20So the LORD said, “I have pardoned them according to your word; 21but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD. 22“Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it.
Psalm 63
1O God, You are my God; I shall seek You earnestly;
My soul thirsts for You, my flesh yearns for You,
In a dry and weary land where there is no water.
2Thus I have seen You in the sanctuary,
To see Your power and Your glory.
3Because Your lovingkindness is better than life,
My lips will praise You.
God's Glory comes to protect your Love and kindness.
Isaiah 58
6“Is this not the fast which I choose,
To loosen the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the bands of the yoke,
And to let the oppressed go free
And break every yoke?
7“Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry
And bring the homeless poor into the house;
When you see the naked, to cover him;
And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
8“Then your light will break out like the dawn,
And your recovery will speedily spring forth;
And your righteousness will go before you;
The glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
9“Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
You will cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’
If you remove the yoke from your midst,
The pointing of the finger and speaking wickedness,
10And if you give yourself to the hungry
And satisfy the desire of the afflicted,
Then your light will rise in darkness
And your gloom will become like midday.
11“And the LORD will continually guide you,
And satisfy your desire in scorched places,
And give strength to your bones;
And you will be like a watered garden,
And like a spring of water whose waters do not fail.
To be Continued.....
God's Glory is Love.
John 17
22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25“O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
You reflect God's Glory.
2 Corinthians 3
18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Ephesians 3
14For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
1 John 4
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
John 17
22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25“O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
You reflect God's Glory.
2 Corinthians 3
18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Ephesians 3
14For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
1 John 4
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
God is almighty. God hates sin. Because of our sin, all of humanity are low down, wicked, hateful, depraved, filthy, sorry sinners, condemned and bound for Hell with no hope. But God, in His boundless and marvelous grace, sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins and all we have to do is believe and trust Him to save us. If you have not trusted Jesus as Savior, God will put you in Hell at the end of your life and in the Lake of Fire at the end of the Great White Throne judgement. If that isn't "sovereign" I don't know what is.
I'm an Independent Baptist, saved and baptized in an Independent, Fundamental, Premillennial, King James Bible church on May 11, 1986. I do not "hate" the TRUE sovereignty of God as I just described in this post.
The "Reformed English Puritan" Thomas Goodwin (Westminster Divine) declares:
"All the attributes in God are subjected to his love, and that is the great prevailing attribute that sways all."
The Works of Thomas Goodwin
This caught my attention.
As a Baptist, I have a problem with the "reformed" as not truly separated from but desiring to cling to the RCC and in some manner modify it to a more acceptable presentation.
However, I have not much problem with a modified Doctrines of Grace thinking.
It never occurred to me to look at this from the perspective of the Presbyterians.
Do the presbyterians consider Baptists as separatists and not from the reformation as puritans? (taking separatists as those that could find nothing of value in the RCC/Anglican and desired to separate completely, in comparison to those who wanted to merely purify (puritans) the RCC/Anglican)
I'm not certain that there is much disagreement between this statement and that of many who hold to the doctrines of Grace.
It is just the matters relating to the "how" not the "what."
For example, most of the IFB churches actually hold to the total depravity of the human condition just as you described, the effectual working of Grace in Redemption, the preservation / perseverance of the redeemed, and the election of believers (as one friend put it "written no the gate of salvation is "whosoever" and when one walks through and looks back it reads "chosen in Him from the foundation of the world") .
What many become exercised over is that the Sovereignty of God is some special indicator of Calvinism and not available for anyone who is not Calvinistic.
Disputes arise and resolve as to the "how" not the "what."
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
How does God assert His sovereignty in salvation? I just posted it. I will see if I can explain it better: God sent His Word and His Holy Ghost into this world. The Holy Ghost "reproves" the world of "sin, righteousness and judgment". In other words, while the Holy Ghost is dealing with your heart and you fail to acknowledge that you're a sinner and turn to His Holy, pure and spotless Lamb, Jesus Christ in faith, God will judge you in Hell. The "Calvinists", "reformed", "fatalists", "particular redemptionists" (or whatever else they will admit to being at the time), say that we are "exalting man" by this doctrine. Actually, No. it does not exhalt man.. To be selfish enough about your own sorry hide to admit that you are a lowdown, hateful, scum of the earth, vile sinner and cry out to Jesus for mercy from the depths of your heart, is NOT exalting man. But I will say this: to say that God only had enough love for a few, and knowingly created the rest or simply ignored or "passed up" the rest so that they could burn in Hell for "His glory" DEGRADES the God of the Bible into some selfish monster. THAT is what we reject.
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I would word this differently than you, but other than that we are in agreement.
Wrong. No Calvinist that I know disagrees that a person will go to hell if they reject Jesus Christ.
Again, we are agreed. Acts 17:30 states, "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent." Simply stated, all men are commanded to repent of their sins.
NOW we finally reach our point of disagreement. FIRST, no Calvinist believes that God only has enough love for a few. God's love is part of His holy character. I will not bother to get into a back-and-forth with you on the scope and intent of the atonement, for you will simply dismiss whatever I say. Suffice to say that I have already exposed your mischaracterization of the Calvinist position. That is enough for now.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Did God love Cain? Pharaoh? Herod? Hitler? Stalin? Charles Manson? Yes, or no? If you say "yes" I will believe you. Otherwise, you have "exposed" nothing. I will tell you what I believe so you will know. I believe God IS love. Love IS His character. He even went so far as to command us to "love our enemies" in order to be "like our Father in heaven".
So if you agree that God DID love Charles Manson, Pharaoh, Stalin and all sinners for that matter, then tell me why YOU think God would forego "enabling" these loved ones to respond to the Gospel?
I have not problem with this expression of the work of the Holy Spirit, for it is Scriptures.
That condemnation already rests upon all except those in whom that same HolySpirit indwells is a true statement reflected in John 3.
The argument that most who agree with the doctrines of Grace in which some express (though not a single one of IFB that I have ever visited with on this) is that view in which a person can of their own personal freedom of the will without the personal work of the Holy Spirit occurring first in conviction and judgment of sin and righteousness found in Christ can and does attain salvation.
That is just not found in Scriptures.
Not a person in the Scriptures is redeemed outside of that very purposed work of the Holy Spirit that brings the Scriptures to bear upon the heart of the individual awakening them to a need to believe.
No person has innate ability on their own to impress God with any work of faith or righteousness. Salvation is not by the will of man nor by the strength of man is that statement of Scriptures consistent with John 1.
If one is to believe that God only loves some, they are in violation of Scriptures. For, does not the Scripture state that God desires all men to be saved?
The Doctrines of Grace are not opposed to God's love of every person, but neither should the Scriptures be presented as God allowing equal opportunity. God is under no obligation to humankind at all. Nor do the Scriptures present that God treats all equally. ("It will be more tolerable for ....")
It is humankind responsibility to respond to God's claim on their life.
Examples:
"Paul, how long are you going to kick against the pricks?"
"Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees..."
"My Spirit will not always strive..."
Paul said that believers are to carry the message of reconciliation.
It is unfortunate that not all respond to that message.
However, all those in whom God has chosen as His own will come to salvation.
Charles H. Spurgeon (IFB pastor now long past) stated the sovereignty of God in Salvation in this manner:
“First, then, Devine sovereignty as exemplified in salvation.
If any man be saved, he is saved by divine grace and by divine grace alone; the reason of his salvation is not to be found in him, but in God. We are not saved as the result of anything that we do or that we will, but we will and do as the result of God’s good pleasure and the work of His grace in our hearts. No sinner can prevent God; that is, he cannot go before Him, cannot anticipate Him. God is always first in the matter of salvation. He is before our convictions, before our desires, before our fears, and before our hopes. All that is good or ever will be good in us is preceded by the grace of God and is the effect of a divine cause within.” (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, vol. 4 a message preached on August 1, 1858, at the Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens, cited by Warren Wiersbe, Classic Sermons on the Sovereignty of God (Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1994), 114-115.)
If any man be saved, he is saved by divine grace and by divine grace alone; the reason of his salvation is not to be found in him, but in God. We are not saved as the result of anything that we do or that we will, but we will and do as the result of God’s good pleasure and the work of His grace in our hearts. No sinner can prevent God; that is, he cannot go before Him, cannot anticipate Him. God is always first in the matter of salvation. He is before our convictions, before our desires, before our fears, and before our hopes. All that is good or ever will be good in us is preceded by the grace of God and is the effect of a divine cause within.” (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, vol. 4 a message preached on August 1, 1858, at the Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens, cited by Warren Wiersbe, Classic Sermons on the Sovereignty of God (Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1994), 114-115.)
I think the question is really not who God loved but who do you love?
Do you love your enemies?
Do you do good to those who purpose to do you evil?
For that is exactly what God did.
"While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
"Here is love exampled, not that we loved God, but He first loved us."
So, again, the emphasis on Scriptures is not the love of God, for God is love.
The emphasis is upon our own condition.
Which of those men would you protect? Which would you die for? Which would you redeem?
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Sir, NONE of us loves as perfectly as God. He even told us to be "perfect" and "holy" and we don't do that. NONE of us measures up to God in love or anything else. For example, If Stalin or Charles Manson had murdered one of my children, I would have a real hard time loving him, wouldn't you? But this discussion about the CHARACTER of God as in the Son saying "Father forgive them" while He was being abused by Roman thugs on the cross.
The question is; WHO is God, and what is His character? I say He is love, and that His love is far more than just "electing" certain ones and passing over the rest without offering them any hope at all. That's not the God of the Bible.
PS. Please...don't say I just denied Biblical "election". I believe election has to do with service; not salvation..
The question is; WHO is God, and what is His character? I say He is love, and that His love is far more than just "electing" certain ones and passing over the rest without offering them any hope at all. That's not the God of the Bible.
PS. Please...don't say I just denied Biblical "election". I believe election has to do with service; not salvation..
Read my words and understand what I meant. What did I write? What did I mean?