Belief in the Absolute Sovereignty of God and the Absolute Depravity of Man

[agedman]

Sir, NONE of us loves as perfectly as God. He even told us to be "perfect" and "holy" and we don't do that. NONE of us measures up to God in love or anything else. For example, If Stalin or Charles Manson had murdered one of my children, I would have a real hard time loving him, wouldn't you? But this discussion about the CHARACTER of God as in the Son saying "Father forgive them" while He was being abused by Roman thugs on the cross.

That was the point.

Then the question is, who then are you (as a human) to question the love of God or how He may choose to express that Love.

For example: Two theives were crucified with Christ, to which one did He communicate, and what was the result?

Did Christ not demonstrate His love sufficiently to both? Yet, what was it that allowed one to be impressed into expressing belief, and the other to mock?

The question is; WHO is God, and what is His character? I say He is love, and that His love is far more than just "electing" certain ones and passing over the rest without offering them any hope at all. That's not the God of the Bible.

PS. Please...don't say I just denied Biblical "election". I believe election has to do with service; not salvation..

First, No one is saved with out purpose and plan for service. The claim of God for salvation coincides with the service He expects to be completed by that one chosen.

Second, Love and election are two separate but related issues in the Scriptures.

The Scriptures present that God creates and sustains all through Christ. That nothing was or is created that was outside and not sustained by Christ.

Scriptures also present that ALL are condemned already. ALL have gone their own way. ALL are unrighteous.

Who then are you to question God that He would select from among all that are unsaved some that He would adopt as His own, and purpose that adoption.


Illustration may help.

You go to a car lot. It has many vehicles each of various capacity and ability.

You select one vehicle for your own.

Why? Was there any overt action on the part of the vehicle to get your attention? Did the vehicle cry out of its own ability for you to choose it? Did the vehicle have some ability of itself to be better than any other?

No.

The choice was yours to make, based on your criteria, for your purpose and at your pleasure.

How then was that vehicle distinguished from all others in the world?

Not by the tires, the paint, the interior, exterior, engine, or in any manner specially detailed.

Rather a single piece of paper called a title.

That vehicle is yours because you posses the title.

Here in is Love, not that we (vehicle) loved God, but the He loved us (vehicle) and gave His Son to die for us.

Do not as some are in trying to refute election cheapen the Grace and choosing authority of God into some human thinking of what seems right, or is pleasing to the sensibilities.

God is the not only the maker/creator of the vehicle, but chooses from all that He made the one(s) He determines to claim as His.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

If you want to, you can just skip this long reply and read the Bible verse at the bottom

That was the point.

Then the question is, who then are you (as a human) to question the love of God

I didn't do that bro. Strawman statement.

or how He may choose to express that Love.

Again, strawman. I already made it clear that He expressed His boundless love by sending His only begotten Son to die for the whole world.

For example: Two theives were crucified with Christ, to which one did He communicate, and what was the result?

Did Christ not demonstrate His love sufficiently to both? Yet, what was it that allowed one to be impressed into expressing belief, and the other to mock?

It seems that both of the thieves derided Him at first. Matthew 27:44 But then one of the them acknowledged that He was a sinner by acknowledging that they deserved the judgment they were getting, and then he asked to "be remembered in thy kingdom". He called Jesus "Lord" and acknowledged that Jesus was to be a "King" after Jesus died. The unbelieving thief experienced the same words spoken, the same darkness and the earthquake, heard Jesus say "father forgive them", heard that Jesus had done nothing wrong(from the believing thief). I would say that he an opportunity to believe as well. It was his own choice to believe or not.

First, No one is saved with out purpose and plan for service. The claim of God for salvation coincides with the service He expects to be completed by that one chosen.

Yes, service. Jesus was "elect", angels are "elect", and Israel was "elect". It has to do with being chosen for service. It's not about being chosen for salvation.

Second, Love and election are two separate but related issues in the Scriptures.

Well, yes. You admit these are separate. So are election and salvation.

The Scriptures present that God creates and sustains all through Christ. That nothing was or is created that was outside and not sustained by Christ.

Yes

Scriptures also present that ALL are condemned already. ALL have gone their own way. ALL are unrighteous.

Yes

Who then are you to question God that He would select from among all that are unsaved some that He would adopt as His own, and purpose that adoption.

Another strawman. I'm not questioning God. I'm questioning you.

Illustration may help.

You go to a car lot. It has many vehicles each of various capacity and ability.

You select one vehicle for your own.

Why? Was there any overt action on the part of the vehicle to get your attention? Did the vehicle cry out of its own ability for you to choose it? Did the vehicle have some ability of itself to be better than any other?

No.

Of course not, vehicles can't cry out or choose. People can.

The choice was yours to make, based on your criteria, for your purpose and at your pleasure.

How then was that vehicle distinguished from all others in the world?

Not by the tires, the paint, the interior, exterior, engine, or in any manner specially detailed.

Rather a single piece of paper called a title.

That vehicle is yours because you posses the title.

Here in is Love, not that we (vehicle) loved God, but the He loved us (vehicle) and gave His Son to die for us.

Again, a vehicle isn't a sentient being with a will of it's own.

Do not as some are in trying to refute election cheapen the Grace and choosing authority of God into some human thinking of what seems right, or is pleasing to the sensibilities.

Cheapen? No. God's grace is most valuable and most wonderful because He offers His salvation to all. And since HE has the freedom to "choose", He affords all of us the same. Read the following verse and remember that God does not change!
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live,

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Dear Brother Reynolds,

Brother, then please give us (me) a good interpretation of Eph. 1:11:

Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

This was quoted from the Blue Letter Bible King James Version. In respect of R.C. Sproul who said, "There is not one rebel atom in any of God's universe."

But I am not sure the Apostle Paul meant all things here.

Now that is a Sovereign God. But I am sure that the "free will of man" can do what he wants when he pleases. Forgive me, sarcasm is so not nice. But then again that is a rhetorical tool.

rd

Dear Rhetorician,

You quoted RC saying, "There is not one rebel atom in any of God's universe."

Well, I would hope we can all agree on that. All of modern science is based on it, successfully so. The Bible does not speak of inert matter, or space or time or energy, nor even the plant or animal kingdoms, as in rebellion to God. In fact, moral will plays no part in any of them. So RC’s observation is simply misdirection. I’m surprised someone of his stature made this error, assuming he applied it as you have.

The issue is strictly the rebellion of man following Satan and a host of angels, what some of us term free-will beings, and it is their and our free will that allowed rebellion in the first place. But free will itself only refers to volition, not to action. As evidenced in your Ephesians 1:11 citation, this distinction is real and important, your sarcasm notwithstanding. Regardless of the desire or will to do something, God has made sure there are limitations on what one can actually do. Praise be to Him forever! Hallelujah!

RT&

 

[agedman]

Cheapen? No. God's grace is most valuable and most wonderful because He offers His salvation to all. And since HE has the freedom to "choose", He affords all of us the same. Read the following verse and remember that God does not change!
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live,

First,

Please provide Scripture support that God offers salvation to all.

Second,

The same Israel that chose God is the same Israel that soon rejected God.

Using your own Scripture as a statement of some freedom of choice and you viewing salvation as a matter of innate ability of choice of acceptance and then later to reject it and be lost, do you not hold to OSAS?

Baptist hold to OSAS (once saved always saved).

Or, do you agree that one may (as these certainly did) have intellectual assent, but no actual change of heart and no indwelling of the Spirit?

 

[SheepWhisperer]

First,

Please provide Scripture support that God offers salvation to all.

Here's one...
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

..and another
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

...and another
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Second,

The same Israel that chose God is the same Israel that soon rejected God.

Not everyone chose life. And many died in the wilderness because of unbelief. We're speaking of individuals choosing, not a nation.

Using your own Scripture as a statement of some freedom of choice and you viewing salvation as a matter of innate ability of choice of acceptance and then later to reject it and be lost, do you not hold to OSAS?

Once a person has been born again, indwelled with the Spirit of God, his "choice" concerning salvation is done ans he is sealed with the Holy Ghost. He cannot be lost again. He can, however, sin and fall out of fellowship with God and suffer chastisement.

Baptist hold to OSAS (once saved always saved).

Yes, because it's Biblical

Or, do you agree that one may (as these certainly did) have intellectual assent, but no actual change of heart and no indwelling of the Spirit?

One cannot be saved by mere "intellectual assent". He must turn to Jesus in faith and repentance.. At that moment, he is a new creature, indwelled with the Holy Ghost, sealed to the day of redemption.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I hate to spoil your stirring of the waters, but I am an Independent, Fundamental Baptist. Saved in an IFB church. Baptized in an IFB church. Married in an IFB church. Educated in an IFB seminary. Taught in an IFB Bible College, Taught in an IFB Seminary. Pastored an IFB church for 27 years and spent 45 years in IFB ministry. And thoroughly embrace the 5 points of TULIP. (With the exception of preferring E over I - Efficacious Grace rather than Irresistible Grace - which is a matter of semantics but gives a clearer understanding of that point of doctrine.)

Granted I am now attending a very conservative SBC church but that is due to an absence of IFB churches in the Valley where I live.

So, there are many of us who still cling to the old Particular Baptist stance, in stark contrast to the IFBx groups who have adopted Finnyism, hook, line, and sinker.

Several such schools still take such a stand (Baptist Bible College and Seminary of Clark Summet, PA. - Now Summit University of Pennsylvania and Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary to name just a couple).

But I agree with your assessment of the vast majority of the IFBx group. Those of us with our theological roots in the FBF, GARBC, and the other groups that left the old NBC tend more toward Particular Redemption and away from the IFBx "1-2-3 pray after me" methodology characteristic of those who later separated from the SBC around the middle of the last century.

So all these years, it’s the Finnyest (from Baptist Bible College in Clark’s Summit that have given me fits?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"Extremist."

Extremist... yes. That is a distinction they are proud of and practice all the time. Very sad.

 

[agedman]

Here's one...
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

..and another
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

...and another
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Desire and draw does not mean offer.

It is determined by the authority of the Father.

"... ALL the Father gives me WILL come to me ..." (John 6)

The rest no offer is given, no authority extended, no power to become.

"... to THEM gave He the power to become...." (John 1)

Only those, and no others are given such endowment.

Does not the word "heart" have "ear" in it?

Not all who have physical ears are given Spiritual ears of the heart to hear the Scriptures, be awakened by the authority of the Holy Spirit and are granted the faith to believe.

The above is covered in Romans.

 

[thatbrian]

Desire and draw does not mean offer.

WINNER!

 

[utilyan]

Desire and draw does not mean offer.

It is determined by the authority of the Father.

"... ALL the Father gives me WILL come to me ..." (John 6)

The rest no offer is given, no authority extended, no power to become.

"... to THEM gave He the power to become...." (John 1)

Only those, and no others are given such endowment.

Does not the word "heart" have "ear" in it?

Not all who have physical ears are given Spiritual ears of the heart to hear the Scriptures, be awakened by the authority of the Holy Spirit and are granted the faith to believe.

The above is covered in Romans.

"Desire and draw does not mean offer. "

Titus 2
11For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.


You can't reject something that hasn't been offered, what damns a person is rejecting.



1 John 5

10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

According to your logic, the one who doesn't believe that God has given them eternal life with Jesus is NOT a LIAR. Because you say God has not offered to them eternal life with Jesus Christ.

Yet this scripture states plainly, the one who does not believe the testimony God has given about his son has made God out to be a LIAR.


Let me repeat.

Say I am said "reprobate" I say "Jesus did not die for me!" This scripture says that person is calling God a LIAR by saying that.

If it followed your logic, he would not be a LIAR at all. He speaks the truth that Jesus did not die for him. Can you see this?

If I reject the testimony, I am saying God does not offer me eternal life. This should be a TRUE STATMENT.


But since scripture clearly teaches he is a LIAR. Then the truth is GOD did offer Life eternal and it has been REJECTED.




There is very little squirming,wiggle and dodge room here. Heres the best that I can come up with but you will still get stuck.

So lets assume just for the sake of making the best argument for Calvinism:

Lets say the testimony means : "God has given us(elect not the guy questioned) eternal life, and this life is in his Son."

Well then here is the trap, as scripture shows fair play.

I challenge you personally, do believe the testimony that GOD has given ME eternal life, and this life is in his Son?

If you say "NO", or "I don't know" I got the grounds to say you are making God out to be a Liar, see that?

Your dilemma is you are taught that you don't know who the elect are other then the self-proclamation made for ourselves.

While scripture teaches:

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


So its a matter of pick your poison.

1. Either God does offer life eternal to all people and people don't believe it making God a Liar.

Or

2 God offers US eternal life and people don't believe this.


If you say 2, then do believe the testimony that GOD has given ME eternal life?

 

[agedman]

"Desire and draw does not mean offer. "

Titus 2
11For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.


You can't reject something that hasn't been offered, what damns a person is rejecting.

The NIV is the ONLY translation using “offered” that I can find.

It (imo) is a poor word choice on the part of that translation. And one reason that I use the NIV in very rare occasions.

This is not the only area that is a poor rendering, and shows a certain bias that I am uncomfortable in recommending to other believers.

The word “sótérios” is salvation.

In context, “The grace of God brings salvation to all men,” does not mean all are saved, but that none are saved because of merit, will, effort or some human attribute. Titus is affirming that it is God’s unmerited favour that brings salvation to the believers.

11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.​

Grabbing a line of Scripture and making some application the context does not support does usually lead to error.

Again, the offer of salvation is not granted indiscriminately by God. That is unsupported by the Scriptures as I showed in the earlier post.

In support, here is a list of how others translate “sótérios” in 2 Titus. None use “offer” except one - the NIV.

New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

New Living Translation
For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.

English Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Berean Study Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Berean Literal Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

New American Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

King James Bible
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,

International Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.

NET Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.

New Heart English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all mankind,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
After all, God's saving kindness has appeared for the benefit of all people.

New American Standard 1977
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Jubilee Bible 2000
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

King James 2000 Bible
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

American King James Version
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

American Standard Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Douay-Rheims Bible
For the grace of God our Savior hath appeared to all men;

Darby Bible Translation
For the grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men has appeared,

English Revised Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Webster's Bible Translation
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Weymouth New Testament
For the grace of God has displayed itself with healing power to all mankind,

World English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Young's Literal Translation
For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,

(List taken from: Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.)

 

[thatbrian]

The NIV is the ONLY translation using “offered” that I can find.

It (imo) is a poor word choice on the part of that translation. And one reason that I use the NIV in very rare occasions.

This is not the only area that is a poor rendering, and shows a certain bias that I am uncomfortable in recommending to other believers.

The word “sótérios” is salvation.

In context, “The grace of God brings salvation to all men,” does not mean all are saved, but that none are saved because of merit, will, effort or some human attribute. Titus is affirming that it is God’s unmerited favour that brings salvation to the believers.

11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.​

Grabbing a line of Scripture and making some application the context does not support does usually lead to error.

Again, the offer of salvation is not granted indiscriminately by God. That is unsupported by the Scriptures as I showed in the earlier post.

In support, here is a list of how others translate “sótérios” in 2 Titus. None use “offer” except one - the NIV.

New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

New Living Translation
For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.

English Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Berean Study Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Berean Literal Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

New American Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

King James Bible
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,

International Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.

NET Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.

New Heart English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all mankind,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
After all, God's saving kindness has appeared for the benefit of all people.

New American Standard 1977
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Jubilee Bible 2000
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

King James 2000 Bible
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

American King James Version
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

American Standard Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Douay-Rheims Bible
For the grace of God our Savior hath appeared to all men;

Darby Bible Translation
For the grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men has appeared,

English Revised Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Webster's Bible Translation
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Weymouth New Testament
For the grace of God has displayed itself with healing power to all mankind,

World English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Young's Literal Translation
For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,

(List taken from: Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.)

Nice work. It looks like the NIV had an agenda.

Also, unless we are Universalists, the "all" does not mean, without exception.

 

[agedman]

Nice work. It looks like the NIV had an agenda.

Also, unless we are Universalists, the "all" does not mean, without exception.

Titus is all about all believers living as all believers should and not as all the heathen unsaved do.

Unless one keeps in focus who is the “all” in Titus, then universal salvation to every person is granted discrediting other Scriptures.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nice work. It looks like the NIV had an agenda.

Also, unless we are Universalists, the "all" does not mean, without exception.

All by the scripture context would have to mean those who received Jesus and got saved, the elect of God.

 

[thatbrian]

All by the scripture context would have to mean those who received Jesus and got saved, the elect of God.

I think it means, not just the Jews.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think it means, not just the Jews.

Yes, as it includes all whom Jesus died for, His elect.

 

[thatbrian]

Yes, as it includes all whom Jesus died for, His elect.

Arminians can sometimes have problems with the word, "all".

 

[Yeshua1]

Arminians can sometimes have problems with the word, "all".

That ties into their holding to unlimited atonement viewpoint.

 

[agedman]

That ties into their holding to unlimited atonement viewpoint.

Perhaps,

However, imo, the problem is that they trip over total in the manner of how completely devoid the unsaved are of any righteousness or ability to choose righteousness.

Arminians also have limited atonement, it is limited to humankind and not inclusive of angels.

 

[Yeshua1]

Perhaps,

However, imo, the problem is that they trip over total in the manner of how completely devoid the unsaved are of any righteousness or ability to choose righteousness.

Arminians also have limited atonement, it is limited to humankind and not inclusive of angels.

Except they view Jesus. death as providing real salvation to all sinners