RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
Your first paragraph.
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Believed King James was most accurate, now unsure what to think
- Thread starter JasonF
- Start date
Since "these two manuscripts" [Vaticanus and Sinaiticus] are not the foundational manuscripts of all the modern versions, this assertion is not true. This author is misinformed, and she misinforms others.
Those two manuscripts are not the foundational manuscripts for the NKJV, the Modern KJV, Literal Translation in Green's The Interlinear Bible, the 21st Century KJV, the Third Millennium Bible, the KJ2000, 2013 The Jubilee Bible, the 2014 Modern English Version, the Simplified KJV, the 2023 King James Version New Testament by Nick Sayers, and the English translations of the Peshitta Syriac Version.
I belive the most accurate Critical Text translation is the New American Standard Bible, but it may contain many errors too. Like you, I use the NET in my study. The NKJV is also sound and more understandable (at least to me). Lastly, you can find the World English Bible (WEB) online and it is based on one version of the MT. I am not a fan of the TR.
Basically I study from the NASB, but compare verse by verse with several others including the NLT.
I believe God gave us His written revelation and He intended it to be clear and understandable provided we study and consider and pray.
May God bless
Van
Believed King James was most accurate, now unsure what to think
1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Note: the departure is not from religion or even from Christendom, but the departure is from "the faith."
4490 ῥητῶς rhetos [hray-toce’]
from a derivative of 4483; adv;
AV-expressly 1; 1
1) expressly, in express words
The phrase "the faith" appears in 42 verses of the KJV, the first being here:
Ac 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
This is very important for understanding the faith in the remainder of the NT scriptures. Look at the context;
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
The context is in his name, Jesus, which means "Jehovah is salvation." It is in the context of blotting out their sins, forgiving them, and the context is in their conversion as a people and a nation of people. The context is in this time, after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that their faith in him will accomplish all God the Father determined it would if they grasped hold of "the faith" of Jesus Christ.
Paul would explain "the faith" further as something that was anticipated by God the Father and faithful Israelites. He understood this truth in a dispensational context.
Watch this:
Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Caution: There are men here who preach the false doctrine that men were saved by faith in the OT time in the same way as they are saved since the cross work of Jesus Christ, but it is false. While God the Father justified men of faith before Christ died and rose again, they never had faith that could blot out their sins and take them away.
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
The promise is the indwelling life giving Spirit of God and of Christ. Inherent sin must be washed away before one can receive the Spirit of God, which is the promise of the Abrahamic covenant to the whole world through Abraham's promised seed.
Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
(Note: Many Bible translations do not have John saying that the blood of Christ washed sins away)
Now watch how there is a time "before" faith came, and a time "after" faith came.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
This statement is in the context of a people who were exercised by the law of Moses, the Jews, as a a schoolmaster, showing them they could not be righteous by means of the flesh.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
This is a dispensational change that amounts to life for those who transitions.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Notice all became children of God, not by being born of Abraham but by the like faith of Abraham long before there was a Jacob and his family.
Men are born into the family of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ and his salvation is the gift of God and sinners must receive him by faith.
I challenge you to study "the faith" in all 42 contexts where it is found in the NT. Do not depart from the faith. For safety, study "the faith" in the KJV.
1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Note: the departure is not from religion or even from Christendom, but the departure is from "the faith."
4490 ῥητῶς rhetos [hray-toce’]
from a derivative of 4483; adv;
AV-expressly 1; 1
1) expressly, in express words
The phrase "the faith" appears in 42 verses of the KJV, the first being here:
Ac 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
This is very important for understanding the faith in the remainder of the NT scriptures. Look at the context;
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
The context is in his name, Jesus, which means "Jehovah is salvation." It is in the context of blotting out their sins, forgiving them, and the context is in their conversion as a people and a nation of people. The context is in this time, after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that their faith in him will accomplish all God the Father determined it would if they grasped hold of "the faith" of Jesus Christ.
Paul would explain "the faith" further as something that was anticipated by God the Father and faithful Israelites. He understood this truth in a dispensational context.
Watch this:
Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Caution: There are men here who preach the false doctrine that men were saved by faith in the OT time in the same way as they are saved since the cross work of Jesus Christ, but it is false. While God the Father justified men of faith before Christ died and rose again, they never had faith that could blot out their sins and take them away.
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
The promise is the indwelling life giving Spirit of God and of Christ. Inherent sin must be washed away before one can receive the Spirit of God, which is the promise of the Abrahamic covenant to the whole world through Abraham's promised seed.
Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
(Note: Many Bible translations do not have John saying that the blood of Christ washed sins away)
Now watch how there is a time "before" faith came, and a time "after" faith came.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
This statement is in the context of a people who were exercised by the law of Moses, the Jews, as a a schoolmaster, showing them they could not be righteous by means of the flesh.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
This is a dispensational change that amounts to life for those who transitions.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Notice all became children of God, not by being born of Abraham but by the like faith of Abraham long before there was a Jacob and his family.
Men are born into the family of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ and his salvation is the gift of God and sinners must receive him by faith.
I challenge you to study "the faith" in all 42 contexts where it is found in the NT. Do not depart from the faith. For safety, study "the faith" in the KJV.
The Scripture mentioned at 2 Timothy 3:16 could be soundly considered the same thing as “the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 1:3) since the faith in this verse is used in a broad sense to refer to the deposit of truth given in the word of God.
The faith that was once delivered to believers or saints did not include exclusive only claims for only one English Bible translation--the KJV. That faith was delivered before A. D. 100, which is long before 1611. Modern KJV-only teaching may be added to the Scriptures, but it is not part of them.
Pastor Glenn Conjurske observed: "Any faith which sets facts at defiance is no faith at all, but only superstition. The Bible squarely bases faith upon facts, and faith cannot exist without them" (Olde Paths, Sept., 1997, pp. 212-213; Bible Version, p. 37).
The faith that was once delivered to believers or saints did not include exclusive only claims for only one English Bible translation--the KJV. That faith was delivered before A. D. 100, which is long before 1611. Modern KJV-only teaching may be added to the Scriptures, but it is not part of them.
Pastor Glenn Conjurske observed: "Any faith which sets facts at defiance is no faith at all, but only superstition. The Bible squarely bases faith upon facts, and faith cannot exist without them" (Olde Paths, Sept., 1997, pp. 212-213; Bible Version, p. 37).
The end times teaching concerning this age, which Paul denotes as the dispensation of the grace of God, because it is the time of the "gospel of God," the good news to the world that God will receive any and all who will come to him in repentance towards him and faith in Jesus Christ. This message and this gospel is going into the very stronghold of Satanic power, the nations of the world. He is not and he has not set back as one who is unconcerned that his kingdom is under attack, but he has been pro-active in defending it nullifying the truth of it.
Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated (from the other apostles who were sent to the circumcision see Ga 2) unto the gospel of God,
Here is the nutshell definition of the gospel of God that Paul called "my gospel."
Ro 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets,
according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
This epistle was written during the events of Acts 18 in 58 AD. The door of faith was opened to gentiles by Peter in Acts 10 in the year 40 AD. The gospel of God is still being preached, but the end is near. There was already 18 years of history behind the gospel of God when Paul wrote this.
There are men here who have no idea what the obedience of faith means.
But there is an adversary:
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
There is another of all these.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
One who is being logical would have to believe that Satan and his ministers have thought about corrupting the word of God and presenting another gospel, woulldn't one?
The deception is greater as the time draws nigh. We have many endtime prophesies concerning this age.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mr 1:22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
There is no way that God has sanctioned all these varied presentations of what he has said no matter what man or woman you quote that says he did. They have no authority.
It is reasonable and logical to conclude that the audience that Jude was addressing was to the same strangers who the apostle Peter addressed and who James addressed, the twelve tribes of Israel scattered abroad. It is highly likely that the letters were delivered to the churches in Asia minor where the promises of becoming children of the living God was now the subject of fulfillment. See Hosea 1. Jesus did say he came to fulfill all prophesy concerning himself. The saints then would be those of Jewish extraction and the faithful in Christ Jesus would be gentiles after the flesh who believed.
However Jude does have a ring of finality to it and I am told this was the last epistle before dispersion of Judah in 70 AD, Jude being written in 69 AD. The people of Israel fell short of having their kingdom realized in 70 AD with Christ coming back again because they would not repent and believe in him largely because of the ministry of bad men who were attempting to thwart the purpose of God that both Peter and Jude wrote about. This book brought the apostolic era to an end, though John wrote all 5 of his books later. There is nothing random with God.
Are you claiming direct advanced revelation from God?
You give your biased opinion, but you are not the authority who decides whether present English Bibles have authority.
God sanctioned or approved four varied presentations in the four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John). God may have allowed and sanctioned all the varied presentations of what He said in the pre-1611 English Bibles as they all contributed to the making of the KJV.
Do you suggest that God sanctioned the 1582 Roman Catholic Rheims New Testament from which the makers of the KJV borrowed many renderings? Do you suggest that God sanctioned all the textually-varying sources that were consulted by the makers of the KJV?
Present English Bible translations including the KJV have derived, acquired, or secondary authority as translations from the greater authority of the preserved Scriptures in the original languages.
God is the Creator/Master of all languages, & it's quite-evident He causes translations to be made in current language as He causes/allows that language to change. A pox upon the KJVO myth for telling English users the gross lie that the KJV is the be-all/end-all English bible translation.
One verse is all I ask for proof of your doctrine.
1 Cor. 14:11
Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.
Now, all I ask for is one verse proving the KJVO myth is true.
This one little request silences KJVOs every time.
37818
Well-Known Member
Define this myth. Or is it myths? Then a short list.
I don't know. I find the excuse that "you can't understand the KJV" to be without merit. There were a lot of words you didn't understand when you first started reading in school. As you read and grew you improved your vocabulary. I've used the KJV since I was six years old, and sure, I needed to learn the meanings of some of the words, just like any other book I might read. There are plenty of words in textbooks, novels, newspapers, etc. that you may not understand. You simply learn them! Now, use whatever version you want, that's fine with me, but "lack of understanding" isn't a great excuse to abandon the KJV. There are plenty of words in other translations that a lot of people don't understand or take the wrong meaning from. JMHO
Difficult words are not the same issue as archaic words or as words with archaic meanings. Difficult words can be looked up in a dictionary.
Readers may assume that they know the meaning of some words still in use, but they were used with a very different and now archaic meaning in 1611. Words still in use but whose meaning may have completely changed could result in a misunderstanding of the meaning of some verses of Scripture. Words used with quite different meaning from what they now typically mean can be like hidden rocks which give no notice of their presence but on which a boat is more likely to be shipwrecked than on rocks that can be seen above the water. Many present readers may assume that they know these words and their meaning without realizing that the word had a very different meaning in 1611.
Even KJV-only author James Knox stated: “You will be surprised by how many words do not mean what you thought they meant” (By Definition, p. 10).
Readers may assume that they know the meaning of some words still in use, but they were used with a very different and now archaic meaning in 1611. Words still in use but whose meaning may have completely changed could result in a misunderstanding of the meaning of some verses of Scripture. Words used with quite different meaning from what they now typically mean can be like hidden rocks which give no notice of their presence but on which a boat is more likely to be shipwrecked than on rocks that can be seen above the water. Many present readers may assume that they know these words and their meaning without realizing that the word had a very different meaning in 1611.
Even KJV-only author James Knox stated: “You will be surprised by how many words do not mean what you thought they meant” (By Definition, p. 10).
You arguments are so elementary and childish and it can be said you are grasping at straws. All of the customs and figures and parables and life itself is given in the scriptures from a Jewish perspective. One cannot understand the marriage of the Lamb and the kingdom reign of Christ with his bride, the church lest he study Jewish customs. God is not writing his Bible so you can understand it, he is writing it so you can't understand it unless you are born again. God makes the gospel of salvation so simple that a little child can understand it but he does not make his ways and his words easy to understand by scholarly wisdom alone. The first thing you must do is to decide to believe his words, something that you have not decided to do yet.
The proof that God must teach men is the OT itself. When Jesus Christ arrived almost no Jew believed in him even as he demonstrated his credentials from the OT all during his earthly ministry and his own people who had synagogues where they taught the OT scriptures all over the landscape are the very ones who insisted on his crucifixion. Those people are in hell now. You can read the gospel accounts, all four, where his very apostles and disciples not only did not know anything about his sacrifice for the sins of the world but actually attempted to to hinder his going to the cross, Matt 16. The generation that rejected Jesus Christ was cursed and not allowed to enter into his rest nationally and were dispersed into the nations of the world and reckoned dead by God.
God wants his church to know height and depth and length and breadth of his mind but it is hidden from the curios religious people. The KJV is not hard for God to teach to faithful believers who seek his truths. Knowing his truths are dependent upon the words he chooses to reveal them.
The Spirit of God was not in man to teach him before Pentecost in 30 AD. Spiritual words are taught by the Spirit.
You may describe your own carnal smear tactics. Your diversionary comments did not address and answer what I stated.
That's a pretty lame excuse. There are very few "archaic" words that cannot be looked up for the meaning. Like "prevent" meaning "precede" in old English. Wow, that took less than a minute for me to figure out, way back when I was a child. Same with "let" in the KJV meaning forbid or hinder. Most KJV readers have solved those issues decades ago. For a new Christian I recommend the NKJV. I just don't believe the KJV is as difficult to understand as you all insist. Especially for someone with at least average intelligence.
Sometimes.
The main objection I have with the KJV is that it is not in the vernacular. This can pose an obstacle, even more than difficult contemporary words (I actually can't think of any difficult words).
Too often I have seen non-Christians speak of Christians as arrogant and "holier than thou". Unfortunately this is sometimes accurate. I have actually seen pastors preach and pray in archaic English.
We need to speak plainly and communicate plainly to others. I believe this includes those translating Scripture.
Another issue is when archaic language is not recognized as such. I have seen a preacher teach John 3:16 by explaining it referred to the depth of God's love (he misunderstood the "so"). Now, he did not preach what was not true, but his sermon was not accurate to the passage he used.
I also like the NKJV (there are not actually legitimate translations I am willing to dislike, although I have my preferences).
The KJVO myth is the belief that the KJV is the only valid English Bible version, & that it's perfect. Both those premises are false.