Yet none of those verses say that we are not saved in this life except that we happen to die while believing. Read the verses again (without adding to them).
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Believers must endure in the faith to the end of life to be saved
- Thread starter Samuels
- Start date
- Status
I sayest the OP is a theological trainwreck.
Then, the question always is ... WHY all of the many dire warnings?
Because they would be a waste of time.
The real elect (chosen ones) from before the foundation of the world
are saved all the while as they trip merrily along down that narrow road.
Do you have the answer to this ... there is one!
And p
In 6:16 and 6:23, "death" is Strong's [HASHTAG]#2288[/HASHTAG], thanatos ... eternal death.
And people have a fit when I ADD (eternal) to my sig below.
The "thanatos" believers are those who choose to be slaves of sin.
The other believers choose to be slaves of obedience unto righteousness and holiness.
And don't be led astray by Paul's nonsense that these believers are slaves of righteousness.
When? ... in their dreams? or when they're in church?
You have to understand that Paul is big into mixing his dire warnings
in with copious amounts of edifications, exhortations, encouragements, etc.
Reason: to be popular
Let the Spirit tell 'em, and if He can't, they're not going to heaven anyway.
Those not led by the Spirit are not going up.
Spiritually, one has to connect the dots!
'Cause everything is NOT clearly explained, as you well know.
One just came to me ... Romans 6:16-23.
In 6:16 and 6:23, "death" is Strong's [HASHTAG]#2288[/HASHTAG], thanatos ... eternal death.
And people have a fit when I ADD (eternal) to my sig below.
The "thanatos" believers are those who choose to be slaves of sin.
The other believers choose to be slaves of obedience unto righteousness and holiness.
And don't be led astray by Paul's nonsense that these believers are slaves of righteousness.
When? ... in their dreams? or when they're in church?
You have to understand that Paul is big into mixing his dire warnings
in with copious amounts of edifications, exhortations, encouragements, etc.
Reason: to be popular
Let the Spirit tell 'em, and if He can't, they're not going to heaven anyway.
Those not led by the Spirit are not going up.
Spiritually, one has to connect the dots!
'Cause everything is NOT clearly explained, as you well know.
Last edited:
LOL [emoji23]
Why did Jesus warn, in Matthew 7, that many who come to him on "that day" will be turned away?
The warnings are real, brother. But so is the salvation to which the warnings point. The problem with OSAS is not the doctrine it advocates (the eternal security of the believer) but the assurance it provides depending on how it is taught. If it merely directs me back to a time when I made a decision then it is false, I agree. But if it directs me to look at my own life to see that I am "walking in the Light". If I am, and my life is indicative of my faith (and vise versa) and I have that assurance. As John taught regarding the false teachers who left, if we are truly members of the Body of Christ then the ultimate assurance is that we remain in Christ.
I don't know why they complain. What we have before us, as slaves to sin, is eternal death. The difference is not between an eternal death as the wages (or consequences) of sin (which Jesus teaches is that future and "second death") and eternal life in Christ. The reason is that the wages of eternal death is paid in the future, but what is being considered in the doctrine of eternal security is a present salvation. We are all born condemned, but not "eternally dead". Is it possible to be saved from this condemnation (and the wage of eternal death avoided) in this lifetime? That is the difference between the views here - salvation possible in this life, or is it something that we hope for in the life to come.
The reason that you are wrong here is that Scripture speaks of the kingdom to come, but that is also a present reality. Both John and Paul speak of people who are saved in their lifetime, here on earth. That is, they possessed eternal life as a reality because their faith is a faith that endures. Jesus also spoke of the "sheep" who are given "in Christ" during their lifetime here on earth (we experience salvation as a present reality). The futuristic approach does hold truth in what it affirms, but taken apart from a moment of salvation (a time of conversion) and a lifetime of being saved, the approach fails because of what it rejects.
God did not abandon Hos Son while in the grave to death, as he was raised again, but did for those 3 hours on the Cross while he suffered as the Sin Bearer!
Sure, of course, but you do realize that I'm here to warn those who are NOT "walking in the light".
But, in a week or so, I will report on a book by David Wilkerson,
which claims that all sin must be disposed of ... and why and how this is accomplished.
Impossible, I see born-again believers shouting angrily!
Your bold is not true!
Several groups of NT verses indicate that salvation is not realized until the end of one's life.
But, I'm still not convinced that there is a direct correlation (including & excluding)
between the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, and heaven itself.
Dake shows that the kingdom of heaven is Jesus' private thing,
and is but a small subset of the kingdom of God.
Last edited:
NONE save Jesus will ever while here have sinless perfection!
You can't "hold fast" Only God hold's fast. What Paul would be preaching here is a sin against God's sovereignty.
Matthew 10 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Revelation 20 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
2 Thessalonians 1These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed
No, the bold is correct. Those who experience eternal death will do so "on that day", which is at Judgment. You need to revisit your theories and adjust them to Scripture....or better yet, trash them and draw biblical ones from Scripture.
No, what Paul was preaching here is holding fast through God (in Christ) and not of ourselves.
Those who are not walking in the light need to be warned. And they have absolutely no assurance of salvation.
Matthew 18
21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.24“When he had begun to settle them ,one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him , saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
The moral of the parable
How many times should Peter forgive? ZERO! OSAS
Calvinist Peter said "LORD you forgave me! I don't have to do NOTHING!"
The King forgave the slave in the beginning. That is God forgiving your sins. You have to be saved for that to take place.
Listen closely to the KING:
‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?
Calvinist Pete would say........Nope, can't. only Jesus is sinless, I don't have to do nothing.
Reprobate Pete would say You never had mercy on me lord! So I am showing the same mercy you showed me.
Was the slave forgiven?
“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Was the slave given mercy?
Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?
This slave is saved right?
And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
Any 5 year old can get the gist of this story. It doesn't click with people who require a LICENSE TO SIN. An Excuse to call themselves of God while they can keep their sin.
NAMELY know who you are:
32but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.24“When he had begun to settle them ,one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him , saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
The moral of the parable
How many times should Peter forgive? ZERO! OSAS
Calvinist Peter said "LORD you forgave me! I don't have to do NOTHING!"
The King forgave the slave in the beginning. That is God forgiving your sins. You have to be saved for that to take place.
Listen closely to the KING:
‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?
Calvinist Pete would say........Nope, can't. only Jesus is sinless, I don't have to do nothing.
Reprobate Pete would say You never had mercy on me lord! So I am showing the same mercy you showed me.
Was the slave forgiven?
“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Was the slave given mercy?
Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?
This slave is saved right?
And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
Any 5 year old can get the gist of this story. It doesn't click with people who require a LICENSE TO SIN. An Excuse to call themselves of God while they can keep their sin.
NAMELY know who you are:
32but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
In fact we can push this further there is no holding fast, being that a reprobate would never held it at all for even one moment.
He can't drop something or even attempt to hold something never offered to him.
NEED to be warned? Nonsense. Especially if we are on God's side. To render any aid on God's declared reprobate insinuates that if you can influence their behavior that better their chances with God.
The only proper course is appeal to God on their behalf.
Imagine I am Calvinist. I disagree with you Jon and believe you have no understanding of scriptures.
Should I tell you about it? No that's wasting my breathe. I don't bother with you at all. I tell God to fix you.
I am elect, Co-heir with Jesus Christ, Fully authorized by Jesus Christ with the authority God the Father gave Jesus.
Galatians 4
5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
So I am a Son of God, I have authority and I got pull. I request that you be made elect.
^this is another dilemma, there are more kind , loving and merciful people then me what happens when the guy who loves and cares for everyone starts requesting all to be elect?
Wrong! 180 degrees wrong! The fact that the Father abandoned/ deserted/ forsook the Son on the cross is the very reason why He will not abandon us. We are safe from the penalty of 1 Thessalonians 1:9 because Christ has taken it upon Himself. Alleluia!
- Status