Believing a Lie

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Dallas: Can anyone of us live, experience and project a life of holiness to the degree that we should? No. Should we not make such an attempt simply because we cannot achieve success, even with the help and Grace of God? No.

HP: I will take your advice on this thread and move on. Hopefully we can get to the crux of the Nazarite matter on another thread. I will leave you with a couple of questions on this thread, now that you have raised the issue. Can one honestly attempt something that one sees as a natural impossibility? Just what is it about the holiness God requires out of man that God Himself is unable to see to completion in this present world? What sin doth so beset us that God is unable to supply the strength to overcome it? Does the following verse in all actuality and honesty represent an impossibility for the believer? Tit 2:12 “Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”
That sure sounds like attainable practical holiness to me. :thumbs:

 

[EdSutton]

Oh really? Do you have ...a wall with holes for weapons to be shot through?

Apparently, our local church may well have, in her original building, from what I'm able to ascertain, as our de facto church historian, by default.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled drivel.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Apparently, our local church may well have, in her original building, from what I'm able to ascertain, as our de facto church historian, by default.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled drivel.

Ed

Ed, have you ever walked out of the hollow???? :laugh:

 

[EdSutton]

No person has ever fullfilled perfectly the Torah, or OT Law. Neither has any Christian born that I know of ever walked a perfect Christian path.

No Jew has ever kept the Torah perfectly, and as far as I know no Jew has ever claimed to.

I'll agree with the first two sentences and the first half of the third sentence, above, excepting the Lord Jesus Christ. But at least two other individuals came awfully close to making the claim that they had kept the Torah, namely "a certain ruler", and Paul.

18 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’”[a]
21 And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.” (Lk. 18:18-21 - NKJV)
17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’”[a]
20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.” (Mk. 10:17-20 - NKJV)
4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. (Phil'p. 3:4-6 - NKJV)

(My emphases) Nazaroo, welcome to the Baptist Board. Now if I may offer one bit of friendly advice from one who has made over 5500 (the current attached number of 5337, notwithstanding) posts on the BB - If you "lay down a gauntlet" with a statement, please don't be surprised when someone picks it up and runs with it! That is why it is called a "Debate Forum".

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

1. I own no property. It is not a requirement for Israelites, or Christians to own anything.

2. I only wear cotton.


3. I do menial work.


No person has ever fullfilled perfectly the Torah, or OT Law. Neither has any Christian born that I know of ever walked a perfect Christian path.

No Jew has ever kept the Torah perfectly, and as far as I know no Jew has ever claimed to.

This doesn't make Jews liars or nonexistant or Christians nonexistant.

For you to argue that there is no such thing as a Nazarite because they don't meet your perfect standard is as stupid as saying there are no such thing as Jews, or no such thing as Christians.

Get real. Present a reasonable argument instead of just attacking people's religious beliefs and practices because they differ from yours. You people should be ashamed of yourselves.

Peace,
Nazaroo

Well, it's 12:30 AM here, and time for my evening prayers and my bedtime, so I don't know if I will be able to get all the way through the thread or not, but I don't want to forget to pray regardless. So will all of you join me in a most Biblical prayer.

"God, I thank thee that I am not as other men are,... unjust,...I fast twice in the week, I give ti... !"

Ed

 

[Andre]

Bizarre that God himself cannot lie, yet he can throw powerful delusions at some to help aide them in believing in a lie thus assisting in their willful destruction.

Greetings:

Are you suggesting that God sends delusions to people with the specific intent of causing them to be eternally lost? Or where the sending of the delusion in any way pushes them further down a path toward condemnation that they were not otherwise already on.

If so, can you provide scriptural examples?

 

[Joe]

Greetings:

Are you suggesting that God sends delusions to people with the specific intent of causing them to be eternally lost? Or where the sending of the delusion in any way pushes them further down a path toward condemnation that they were not otherwise already on.

If so, can you provide scriptural examples?

Hi Andre
Here is the quote-
Originally Posted by Joe
"Bizarre that God himself cannot lie, yet he can throw powerful delusions at some to help aide them in believing in a lie thus assisting in their willful destruction"

God doesn't "cause" someone to be eternally lost who is not already headed down that path. Those who abide in truth are not able to be deluded. It’s dangerous to knowingly resist God’s truth.

 

[DHK]

If for instance, a man says he is a Jew, and follows Jewish religion, custom and practice, he is for all practical purposes a Jew.

So if I follow the practices of an Arab living in Egypt will my skin turn black?
Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

And if a man is willing even to be hauled off to a concentration camp and be gassed for being a Jew, you might as well allow him the dignity of calling himself a Jew, even if every other Jew, orthodox or unorthodox, atheist or devout, conservative or liberal, denies his right to be a Jew.

You are a self-admitted Anglican; not a Jew. To that extent it is impossible for you to be a Nazarite, just as it is impossible for you to be a Guru (Hindu or Sikh) or a Sufi (Muslim). These (like the Nazarite) are all ascetics.

The point is, it is a childish argument. I took Nazarite vows, and I have renewed Nazarite vows. Thats what Nazarites of old did, and if I do that today, I am entitled to call myself a Nazarite, meaning no more or less than what I just said.

And the leopard doesn't change his spots by wishing himself to do so.
You said you are an Anglican; As the leopard can't change its spots; the Anglican can't become a Nazarite. Nazarites are Jews.
[Scripture reference please.

If you are going to invent history, then you will be engaging in fantasy. Today there are thousands of Nazarite communities all over the world, and even on the Internet.

http://www.nazarite.com/
http://www.sabbatarian.com/Content/Nazarite.html

http://directory.ic.org/records/?action=view&record_id=20543
http://technorati.com/tag/Nazarite
http://osdir.com/ml/culture.templar.rosemont/2002-09/msg00007.html
http://www.experiencefestival.com/nazarite

http://www.nazarite.net/
http://razorskiss.net/wp/index.php?p=13
http://nazarite.stumbleupon.com/
http://www.biblecentre.org/topics/chm_nazarite.htm
http://www.rastafari-nazarite-library.com/index.html
http://rinahshal.tripod.com/id165.html
http://www.blogcatalog.com/blogs/nazarite-childrens-missions.html
http://www.puritanboard.com/f40/samson-exception-standard-nazarite-rules-21023/
http://home.earthlink.net/~mpeever/cac/Established/node7.html

This is just a quick sample of literally hundreds of thousands of active links, communities and articles on MODERN DAY Nazarites.[/quote]
You have proved to me that you know how to do a search without knowing what the search actually produces. Did you even look up what your own links contain, or just assume that I wouldn't?
The first link is just an allegorization of Numbers ch.6. So what? Allegorizing Scripture doesn't make one a Nazarite. I have a tape by a local preacher who preaches on "Leviathan" from Job. He states that Leviathan is "pride." He is allegorizing. Just because he says it is pride doesn't make it so. The same is true in your link. It is only an allegorization of Scripture. Through that method you can make the Scripture say anything you want. And the prayer that they lead you to make at the end is the typical easy-believism prayer of Romans Road. What has that got to do with being a Nazarite? Nothing!

In your second link, I find a cult. The author's beliefs about God are strange.

Neither the Holy Spirit nor Yahweh are male or female, but instead have both masculine and feminine traits. This is actually not true in the strictest sense, because this would be placing the Creator after the created. In the truest sense it is man and woman who together have been given by The Creator either predominately masculine or feminine qualities; of which The Creator possesses both. Therefore, when Scripture refers to Yahweh, Y'shua, or their Holy Spirit as Him or Her; the Scripture is actually referring to the masculine or feminine traits that are most often observed in natural man or woman. This was not done to confuse us, but to teach us. It is the outside influence of natural man that brought about the chaos and confusion.

He attributes both female and male qualities to God, but the Bible does no such thing. His idea of being a Nazarite is way out of whack. Not one of these is Biblical; and the latter link is totally unbiblical.

Interest and practice of Nazarite Vows are a widespread practise, both among Jews and non-Jews today.

Not the Biblical literal practice. You can't be a Nazarite. You aren't a Jew; you are an Anglican. You cannot serve two masters. I thought you claimed to be a Christian. Which is it?

Jesus indeed warned against taking frivolous vows, or insincere or hypocritical vows. He especially warned about swearing needless oaths, and attempting to avoid personal responsibility through 'legal loopholes', as some in His day did.

So why are you trying to do the same thing. It is impossible for a Gentile like yourself to take a Nazarite vow. You are an Anglican; not a Jew. Jesus warned against such frivilous vows which could not be kept.

But Jesus Himself took a Nazarite vow of the strongest wording at the Last Supper, as recorded in Luke 22:18.

This is not true and cannot be demonstrated from Scripture. One of your links tried to do this but failed miserably. The Scripture doesn't support it.

AND WHY ARE YOU, A MODERATOR, POSTING OFF TOPIC REPEATEDLY IN EVERY THREAD OF MINE?

I am answering what you have already posted and trying to clarify just who you are and your agenda for posting here. Remember this is a debate forum--not a: here is my agenda; my point of view, my Bible Study, my thread, etc. It is a debate forum. If the thread is not in the form of debate it may as well be shut down. I hope you come to that realization. We are not in the habit of accomodating ourselves to another's propaganda or even what they consder the "truth" from their point of view. If they wish to debate it, then put it into a form that it can be debated.

WHY DO YOU WANT TO DERAIL ALL THESE THREADS?

Keep pushing buttons and you will find yourself on the outside looking in. My purpose is not to derail your thread, but to ascertain where you are coming from. When one questions the very veracity of God, his nature, and in fact accuses his integrity and makes the accusation that he is a liar, then something is wrong. I have every right to question that kind of heresy and blasphemy which should not be posted on this forum. That is the way I looked at it, and that is what brought about such a harsh response in my first post to you. I admit that my first response was a bit overboard and I apologize for that.

WHO ARE YOU, AND WHAT DO YOU REALLY WANT?

I have given you a suitable answer to which you have given me some flippant answers. Who are you is the question I am trying to get an honest answer from. What exactly do you believe. If I ask that you are an Anglican, you respond that the Anglicans beleive many things and you won't be pinned down with conformity to the Anglican faith. Something is wrong. There seems to be deceit in your profile. That is why I ask: who you are. Be honest about yourself.

 

[DHK]

You can lead a horse to water, even living water, but you can't make it drink.

"For I say to you,
I will not drink of the Fruit of the Vine
until the Kingdom of God comes!" (Luke 22:18)
​

If you can't see that the very serious vow that Jesus took at the Last Supper was not only in essence a Nazarite Vow, but was the most extreme Nazarite Vow ever expressed by any man in the Old or New Testaments, indeed, the quinessential Nazarite Vow of All Time, I have no power to open your eyes.

1. You are right. You have no power to open anyone's eyes. Don't claim that you do. This sounds like a personal attack. It comes close. When I perceive that it is, it will be deleted, as all others are.
2. The verse you quoted is a statement. It is not a vow, not even a promise, but only a statement. Jesus said: "He would not drink of the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom comes. It is a statement of fact. It is not a promise or a vow. It has nothing to do with a Nazarite vow, and the context does not give any indication that it does. Where is the vow. Where is the indication that it is a vow? The onus of proof is on you.

If this was NOT a very serious and profound Vow by the King of Kings, then whatever do you think Jesus was really doing here?

He was simply stating that the next time he would drink the fruit of the vine would be in the kingdom. The setting was the last supper. In just a couple days he would be crucified, then buried and then rise again. What need would he have to drink the fruit of the vine before then?

"Hey guys: quit chatting. Listen up...

Um, I think I am not going to drink anymore wine tonight.Yeah...at least until dawn...oh nevermind...it wasn't that important." (Luke 22:18, StandingFirmInChrist Translation)

Yep, that is what he said. He is not going to drink of that cup until he reaches the kingdom. What is so hard to understand that plain straightforward statement? There is nothing to connect it to any Nazarite vow.

Somehow your version of the text just doesn't have the same impact on me.

By "impact" I assume you mean "emotion," or at least it sounds like it. If I ran my life by my emotions I wouldn't get up in the moring. I like to sleep in. But I don't run my life my emotions. My life would be a mess if I did--chaotic, confused, full of disaster. I must run my life by the Word of God, not by emotion. So if the verse doesn't "impact" you, I am not too concerned.

 

[DHK]

No Jew has ever kept the Torah perfectly, and as far as I know no Jew has ever claimed to.

Some claimed to. The Scriptures make that evident:

Mark 10:19-20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
--The rich young ruler claimed to keep the law from his youth upward. He lied. He didn't. In the next few verses Jesus demonstrates that he didn't. He demonstrates his sin of covetoutsness--how he coveted his riches more than he desired Christ and the forgiveness of sins that he offered. He went awway sorrowful because he had many riches.
--The law condemned. It could not be kept. Its purpose was to lead us to Christ for it showed us our sinfulness.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
--The law could not justify. We are justified by faith in Christ.

For you to argue that there is no such thing as a Nazarite because they don't meet your perfect standard is {like} [offensive language removed] saying there are no such thing as Jews, or no such thing as Christians.

The standard isn't perfect, though God's law is. Under God's law the Nazarite has no use today. His position was done away with at the Cross. Those who are blind to the Cross (the Jews) may possible still take a Nazaritic vow, but I find that even that is uniikely seeing how far Judaism has strayed from the truth of God's Word.

Get real. Present a reasonable argument instead of just attacking people's religious beliefs and practices because they differ from yours. You people should be ashamed of yourselves.

Perhaps you should practice what you preach.

 

[DHK]

You and your mockery, as a rich American, and living about as far away from the ideals and practices of early Christians as it is possible to achieve on planet Earth, do not surprise me.

Your unbelief or (fake) incredulity at my poverty is as hollow as it is callous and hateful.

I have no doubt in my mind that you don't know what real proverty is. How often have traveled outside of American and inside 3rd world nations?

Good luck on explaining to Jesus on Judgement Day what you were doing today.

Shouldn't we be wishing you the same.

I'll try to minimise your cruelty and I promise you I myself forgive you.

It is a double-edged sword.

The husbands of Lot's daughters were also habitual mockers.

And this is relevant how? You have mocked the Word of God more than anyone here, inferring that God Himself is a liar.

And when it came time to take a message seriously, they were unable to do so.
When Lot came to warn them of the coming destruction, they rolled back into bed,
because they thought he was joking.

"HE SEEMED AS ONE THAT JOKED UNTO HIS SONS IN LAW." (Genesis 19:14)
You are unable to hear me. I hope the Lord unplugs your ears.
Peace,
Nazaroo

Not many here can take what you say seriously. What would you expect?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If only...

 

[BobRyan]

A recent thread asked if one could tell if they were mistaken in their beliefs. I thought it might be good to discuss the dangers, if any, in believing a lie. I believe that many have believed lies concerning spiritual things, and that it will result in their eternal condemnation, for only one's knowledge of the truth can make one free (John 8:32).

In that thread most responded that they did not think that Christians "can tell when they are in error" and in almost all cases when Christians are in error it is "not original with them" but rather the error was "taught to them" and they were "taking a prior bias to scripture" rather than applying Exegesis.

That means that by definition -- error is a lie that someone believes and was told by someone else (in most cases - though some few here seem to make up their own).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Greetings:

Are you suggesting that God sends delusions to people with the specific intent of causing them to be eternally lost? Or where the sending of the delusion in any way pushes them further down a path toward condemnation that they were not otherwise already on.

If so, can you provide scriptural examples?

2 Thess 2 it says that the devil will come along in the last days working signs and wonders with maximum power to deceive.

It says "God turns them over" the wicked list turned over to "strong delusions" BECAUSE they did not "choose" to have a "love of the truth".

As we learned in Matt 16 with Peter saying to Christ "may it never be Lord" as Christ declared His mission to die for the sins of the world --- "Love of truth" means accepting something that does not fit the bias of man-made-traditions EVEN in case where they "sound good" AND are "popular".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

2 Thess 2 it says that the devil will come along in the last days working signs and wonders with maximum power to deceive.

It says "God turns them over" the wicked list turned over to "strong delusions" BECAUSE they did not "choose" to have a "love of the truth".

As we learned in Matt 16 with Peter saying to Christ "may it never be Lord" as Christ declared His mission to die for the sins of the world --- "Love of truth" means accepting something that does not fit the bias of man-made-traditions EVEN in case where they "sound good" AND are "popular".

in Christ,

Bob

I firmly believe that in most cases, that when a person is willing to study the Bible objectively, and not let his pre-conceived ideas get the best of him, that sola scriptura will lead him to the truth. It can do no other but end up in that conclusion. This is why the RCC so hates that doctrine. Sola Scriputa does not end up in the RCC doctrine but in Biblical truth.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I firmly believe that in most cases, that when a person is willing to study the Bible objectively, and not let his pre-conceived ideas get the best of him, that sola scriptura will lead him to the truth. It can do no other but end up in that conclusion. This is why the RCC so hates that doctrine. Sola Scriputa does not end up in the RCC doctrine but in Biblical truth.

GE

I am grateful to you, DHK! Amen!

Just thought 'Standingfirminchrist' is a nice pseudonym ... so 'standing firm ON Christ' would be a very nice slogan for one's doctrinal prologoma!