Believing in Christ and Calling Upon the Name of the Lord

[Alan Gross]

Romans Road Evangelism

(Romans 3:19-20) Consent of sin is not enough, there must be a spiritual conviction.

A NATURAL CHOICE
Having established that the prospect is a sinner according to Scripture, and that if he or she died right now, he or she would go to hell according to Scripture, the next question is, “Wouldn’t you like to know that you could go to heaven instead of hell?” Now, it doesn’t take spiritual concern, conviction, repentance, faith or anything else but a mental opinion that there just might be a heaven and a hell to make this choice a foregone conclusion. The ‘soul

winner’ has now completely departed from the Gospel and employed the sliest of sales tactics. ANY

unrepentant harlot, dope peddler, thief, drunkard, or whoremonger will choose heaven. It is a natural choice, not the decision of a converted heart. While sitting in a ‘Soul Winning Seminar’ in 1963 during the question and answer session, I referred back to this point in the presentation, and asked this question: “Do you not speak to the person about the extreme sinfulness of sin and of repentance?” The answer was an emphatic, “No! I let the Holy Spirit take care of that.” Now, I know that the Holy Spirit must work repentance or there is no salvation. However, if we are to leave repentance to the Holy Spirit without preaching the sinfulness of sin and repentance toward God as Paul said he did in Acts 20:21, shall we not also leave faith toward Jesus Christ strictly to the Holy Spirit aside from the preaching of the positive side of the Gospel?

The fact is the Bible demand upon the sinner that he abandon sin in his heart is the one thing that will tip the scale in this ‘natural choice’ and cause him to say, “Well, how about let’s wait until tomorrow?” It is this that forces the over zealous ‘soul winner’ to completely avoid the subject of repentance for it would cut his number of professions to shreds. Such dishonest and shameful tactics should not be used in the name of “soul winning.”

A WRONG EMPHASIS
It is now that the ‘soul winner’ moves into some of the most glorious verses in all of God’s Holy Word. “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”(Romans 10:9-10)

He is contextually careless in the use of Romans 5:8, for it in context speaks of what Christ has done for the believer, and certainly should be accompanied by other Scriptures such as John 3:14-16 and Revelation 22:17 to assure the sinner that it is available to whosoever will come.

Moving then to Romans 10:9-10, he passes almost incidentally over the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, which is the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). He places all his emphasis upon “if thou shalt confess with thy mouth and believe in thine heart.” According to Romans 10:10, the confession is not a human act by which he appropriates Christ’s righteousness; but an outflowing of faith (belief) by which the righteousness of Christ is imputed to him. “For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:3) “Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead.” (Romans 4:23-24)

Faith is not the resolution of the human heart “I will believe,” but the result of spiritual revelation from God through the Word and the Spirit, “I do believe.” If any man has come to know Christ in the capacity of Peter’s confession in Matthew 16:16, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God;” it must also be said of him, “Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17).

It is our responsibility to testify to all, repentance toward God and faith toward Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). Our finesse or sales approach is not to convert, but THE GOSPEL is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16a). The question of Romans 10:14 is “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?” To me, the implication is quite clear that there is to be extensive preaching of God’s Word, not superficial presentations of a summarized Gospel. I think also that Bible example of bringing souls to Christ will bear out my conviction. I further believe that if we put our emphasis on preaching the Gospel and not on extracting commitments or professions, we would eliminate 90% of false professions.

con't Romans Road Evangelism

 

[Alan Gross]

FAITH IN A HUMAN ACT
In my opinion, the sin of all sins in ‘Romans Road’ evangelism is a terrible misuse of Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” No more glorious verse has been written in the Bible and certainly not anywhere else. I believe it with all my heart. I do not believe that it means what it is commonly interpreted and used to mean, that being, that man is saved by grace through faith at the point of an act of prayer.

All who pray are not saved. The Pharisee of Luke 18:11 prayed and obviously did so in sincerity. But according to Jesus, he was lost. “I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 18:14) All who pray in the name of Jesus are not saved. Many sinners have prayed in Jesus’ name in a moment of panic and in all fearful sincerity, but the next day was right back in their sin. They prayed because of stark fear, not because of repentance and faith. They were not saved. All who pray sincerely in Jesus’ name are not saved. There are people who pray in all sincerity in the name of Jesus who are not saved for they firmly believe that their hope lies in baptism, keeping commandments, etc., and the only faith they have in Jesus is that He was God’s Son. Even the devils believe that.

What then does Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” mean? If you will read Romans 10:11-12 you will see. “For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” In Romans 10:13, Paul is basically quoting Joel 2:32, which is a prophecy that Jew and Gentile alike shall have access to God through Jesus Christ. Romans 10:12 states this very thing. “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” Romans 10:13 is quoted by Paul to show the consistency of his doctrine with Bible prophecy.

The Greek word Epikaleomai means a great deal more than just the utterance of a verbal prayer. It means to invoke for aid or in worship, to look to, or to lean heavily upon. In short, it is dealing with genuine trust, not just ‘praying the sinner’s prayer.’ The publican of Luke 18:13 was not saved by “the sinner’s prayer” and the Lord in no sense implies that he was. He was saved by grace through faith in the blood of Christ which was to be applied to the mercy seat of heaven. His prayer was nothing more than an outflowing statement of that faith. So it is with us, “with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation” (Romans 10:10).

What comes out of the mouth does not flow into the heart, but rather what comes out of the heart flows through the mouth. Thus a man’s confession must be of a faith which is already in his heart through which he is already saved by grace. It is thus a confession of his salvation (Romans 10:10) and not an act of prayer by which he is saved as so many erroneously teach. The conventional use of Romans 10:13 by many Baptists is exactly the same as the conventional use of Acts 2:38 by the “Church of Christ.”

CAUSE FOR CONFUSION AND DOUBT
I have frequently heard preachers misusing Romans 10:13 say, “Now, this Scripture says call and you’ll be saved.”“But,” says the hesitant ‘prospect,’ “I don’t feel – I don’t think – I believe so and so – I don’t believe so and so,” etc., etc., etc.“But,” argues the persistent ‘soul winner,’ “the Bible says call.” So after much argument, the defeated ‘prospect’ ‘calls.’ “Now,” asks the “soul winner,” “how do you feel?” If the ‘convert’ says “Ok,” “Good,” “Better,” “Wonderful,” or such like, then all is well and they can go on their way rejoicing. If on the other hand, the ‘convert’ says, “I don’t feel anything,” then the ‘soul winner’ returns to Romans 10:13 and reminds him that the Bible says if you call, you’ll be saved. Now, what does that mean? The doubting but bewildered ‘convert’ answers timidly, “I’m? saved?” “Right!!” answers the zealous ‘soul winner,’ “and don’t let anyone make you doubt it.”

Now, beloved, if such a ‘convert’ has ANY confidence in anything that has happened, he has been led to trust in his act of prayer. Why should he not later question or deny his salvation? He probably has none. After all he was directed not to the Cross of Calvary, but to his act of prayer. If he takes the things of God seriously he could not possibly be either satisfied or secure in his own mind.

 

[37818]

FAITH IN A HUMAN ACT
In my opinion, the sin of all sins in ‘Romans Road’ evangelism is a terrible misuse of Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” No more glorious verse has been written in the Bible and certainly not anywhere else. I believe it with all my heart. I do not believe that it means what it is commonly interpreted and used to mean, that being, that man is saved by grace through faith at the point of an act of prayer.

All who pray are not saved. The Pharisee of Luke 18:11 prayed and obviously did so in sincerity. But according to Jesus, he was lost. “I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 18:14) All who pray in the name of Jesus are not saved. Many sinners have prayed in Jesus’ name in a moment of panic and in all fearful sincerity, but the next day was right back in their sin. They prayed because of stark fear, not because of repentance and faith. They were not saved. All who pray sincerely in Jesus’ name are not saved. There are people who pray in all sincerity in the name of Jesus who are not saved for they firmly believe that their hope lies in baptism, keeping commandments, etc., and the only faith they have in Jesus is that He was God’s Son. Even the devils believe that.

What then does Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” mean? If you will read Romans 10:11-12 you will see. “For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” In Romans 10:13, Paul is basically quoting Joel 2:32, which is a prophecy that Jew and Gentile alike shall have access to God through Jesus Christ. Romans 10:12 states this very thing. “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” Romans 10:13 is quoted by Paul to show the consistency of his doctrine with Bible prophecy.

The Greek word Epikaleomai means a great deal more than just the utterance of a verbal prayer. It means to invoke for aid or in worship, to look to, or to lean heavily upon. In short, it is dealing with genuine trust, not just ‘praying the sinner’s prayer.’ The publican of Luke 18:13 was not saved by “the sinner’s prayer” and the Lord in no sense implies that he was. He was saved by grace through faith in the blood of Christ which was to be applied to the mercy seat of heaven. His prayer was nothing more than an outflowing statement of that faith. So it is with us, “with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation” (Romans 10:10).

What comes out of the mouth does not flow into the heart, but rather what comes out of the heart flows through the mouth. Thus a man’s confession must be of a faith which is already in his heart through which he is already saved by grace. It is thus a confession of his salvation (Romans 10:10) and not an act of prayer by which he is saved as so many erroneously teach. The conventional use of Romans 10:13 by many Baptists is exactly the same as the conventional use of Acts 2:38 by the “Church of Christ.”

CAUSE FOR CONFUSION AND DOUBT
I have frequently heard preachers misusing Romans 10:13 say, “Now, this Scripture says call and you’ll be saved.”“But,” says the hesitant ‘prospect,’ “I don’t feel – I don’t think – I believe so and so – I don’t believe so and so,” etc., etc., etc.“But,” argues the persistent ‘soul winner,’ “the Bible says call.” So after much argument, the defeated ‘prospect’ ‘calls.’ “Now,” asks the “soul winner,” “how do you feel?” If the ‘convert’ says “Ok,” “Good,” “Better,” “Wonderful,” or such like, then all is well and they can go on their way rejoicing. If on the other hand, the ‘convert’ says, “I don’t feel anything,” then the ‘soul winner’ returns to Romans 10:13 and reminds him that the Bible says if you call, you’ll be saved. Now, what does that mean? The doubting but bewildered ‘convert’ answers timidly, “I’m? saved?” “Right!!” answers the zealous ‘soul winner,’ “and don’t let anyone make you doubt it.”

Now, beloved, if such a ‘convert’ has ANY confidence in anything that has happened, he has been led to trust in his act of prayer. Why should he not later question or deny his salvation? He probably has none. After all he was directed not to the Cross of Calvary, but to his act of prayer. If he takes the things of God seriously he could not possibly be either satisfied or secure in his own mind.

Shall be saved in Romans 10:13 means the same as Mark 16:16 without the water.

 

[Silverhair]

FAITH IN A HUMAN ACT
In my opinion, the sin of all sins in ‘Romans Road’ evangelism is a terrible misuse of Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” No more glorious verse has been written in the Bible and certainly not anywhere else. I believe it with all my heart. I do not believe that it means what it is commonly interpreted and used to mean, that being, that man is saved by grace through faith at the point of an act of prayer.

All who pray are not saved. The Pharisee of Luke 18:11 prayed and obviously did so in sincerity. But according to Jesus, he was lost. “I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 18:14) All who pray in the name of Jesus are not saved. Many sinners have prayed in Jesus’ name in a moment of panic and in all fearful sincerity, but the next day was right back in their sin. They prayed because of stark fear, not because of repentance and faith. They were not saved. All who pray sincerely in Jesus’ name are not saved. There are people who pray in all sincerity in the name of Jesus who are not saved for they firmly believe that their hope lies in baptism, keeping commandments, etc., and the only faith they have in Jesus is that He was God’s Son. Even the devils believe that.

What then does Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” mean? If you will read Romans 10:11-12 you will see. “For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” In Romans 10:13, Paul is basically quoting Joel 2:32, which is a prophecy that Jew and Gentile alike shall have access to God through Jesus Christ. Romans 10:12 states this very thing. “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” Romans 10:13 is quoted by Paul to show the consistency of his doctrine with Bible prophecy.

The Greek word Epikaleomai means a great deal more than just the utterance of a verbal prayer. It means to invoke for aid or in worship, to look to, or to lean heavily upon. In short, it is dealing with genuine trust, not just ‘praying the sinner’s prayer.’ The publican of Luke 18:13 was not saved by “the sinner’s prayer” and the Lord in no sense implies that he was. He was saved by grace through faith in the blood of Christ which was to be applied to the mercy seat of heaven. His prayer was nothing more than an outflowing statement of that faith. So it is with us, “with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation” (Romans 10:10).

What comes out of the mouth does not flow into the heart, but rather what comes out of the heart flows through the mouth. Thus a man’s confession must be of a faith which is already in his heart through which he is already saved by grace. It is thus a confession of his salvation (Romans 10:10) and not an act of prayer by which he is saved as so many erroneously teach. The conventional use of Romans 10:13 by many Baptists is exactly the same as the conventional use of Acts 2:38 by the “Church of Christ.”

CAUSE FOR CONFUSION AND DOUBT
I have frequently heard preachers misusing Romans 10:13 say, “Now, this Scripture says call and you’ll be saved.”“But,” says the hesitant ‘prospect,’ “I don’t feel – I don’t think – I believe so and so – I don’t believe so and so,” etc., etc., etc.“But,” argues the persistent ‘soul winner,’ “the Bible says call.” So after much argument, the defeated ‘prospect’ ‘calls.’ “Now,” asks the “soul winner,” “how do you feel?” If the ‘convert’ says “Ok,” “Good,” “Better,” “Wonderful,” or such like, then all is well and they can go on their way rejoicing. If on the other hand, the ‘convert’ says, “I don’t feel anything,” then the ‘soul winner’ returns to Romans 10:13 and reminds him that the Bible says if you call, you’ll be saved. Now, what does that mean? The doubting but bewildered ‘convert’ answers timidly, “I’m? saved?” “Right!!” answers the zealous ‘soul winner,’ “and don’t let anyone make you doubt it.”

Now, beloved, if such a ‘convert’ has ANY confidence in anything that has happened, he has been led to trust in his act of prayer. Why should he not later question or deny his salvation? He probably has none. After all he was directed not to the Cross of Calvary, but to his act of prayer. If he takes the things of God seriously he could not possibly be either satisfied or secure in his own mind.

I will admit that I am always amazed at the Calvinist that thinks they were saved before creation will so easily dismiss the power of the gospel to save.

Your whole article was just so much huff and puff. Are Calvinists not the ones that hold to the DoG? Are you not the ones that say Christ only came to save your so called "elect"? Calvinism has people saved before they believe in Christ Jesus. That's not biblical but when did that ever stop them from saying it. Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved." Loraine Boettner

The Gospel call in Calvinism is not a well meant call or sincere offer. Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Their own theology precludes this, but they just do not want to acknowledge that fact.

Calvinist theology has made the good faith offer of salvation moot. If, according to Calvinism, you are not part of this select group then you are doomed form the start. And on top of that God has even decreed just the way you will act out your sinful life and then condemns you for it.

So for you to say that when someone presents the gospel message that they are doing it wrong is to say the least hypocritical. At least when they do present it they are doing it knowing that God really does want all to come to repentance 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and that those that do call on Christ will be saved Romans 10:9-10. You do realize that it is not our words that will convict a person, it is the Holy Spirit 1 Thessalonians 1:5.

So we present the gospel message, however imperfectly, knowing that it is the power of God, not us, that saves. Romans 1:16

 

[Martin Marprelate]

"As I said in another thread, the sinner's warrant to come to Christ is not that he thinks he is elect, but that he is a sinner and the Lord Jesus came into the world to save such."

Martin it is in those quoted words that we see the difference between your view and mine.

Really? May I ask you what is the sinner's warrant to come to Christ?

Calvinism has Christ come to save only the "elect" whereas I see Christ came so salvation was available to all. 1Timothy 2:3-6 God desires that all be saved and Christ came as a ransom for all for that reason.

And yet it is plain that God does not desire that every single person be saved, since it is obvious that not all are. In the context of 1 Timothy 2:2-6, it is eveident that God desires the salvation of all manner of people: rich and poor, powerful and weak etc. And if the Lord Jesus came as a ransom for every single person, it is evident that it has not gone well. But in fact, He came for those whom the Father has given Him, and of those He will not lose even one (John 6:39 etc.).

All those that will trust in Christ Jesus will be saved John 6:40 which is the will of God the Father.

Exactly so. 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' But it is evident that many people will not call on the name of the Lord, so, whether you like it or not, you are limiting the Atonement.

For that reason we are commanded to preach the gospel to all so that all may be saved. Mark 16:15

You have added a little bit to Mark 16:15. Certainly we are to preach the Gospel to every creature, but he who does not believe will be condemned - if fact, he is condemned already (John 3:18).

Jesus is the Elect One, and when we become in Him through faith, we are then elect also. Isaiah 42:1

Certainly the Lord Jesus is the elect One of Isaiah 42, but 'we' are actually chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world.

The fundamental difference in our views is in how one understands predestination. For example look at Ephesians 1:1-5.
Does this passage or any passage say that God has chosen certain people to be believers or does predestination simply mean that God has a destination that He determined beforehand. In other words God has determined beforehand what will happen to believers, those who are in Christ. They are chosen to become holy and blameless before Him. They are predestined to adoption as sons through faith in the Son.
When you understand predestination is not about God predetermining who will and won't believe but instead God has predetermined what will happen to those who do believe, then you have a completely different understanding of Ephesians.

I cannot accept this interpretation for a moment. We were chosen before the foundation of the world and predestined, not according to our faith, but 'according to the good pleasure of His will' (Ephesians 1:4-5; c.f. Matthew 11:25-27).Interestingly, the words 'faith,' 'belief'' or 'believe' do not appear in Ephesians 1:1-11. You have to read them in.

But the main reason that I can't accept it is that it means that God does not love anybody enough to save them. It is left to us, apparently without the aid of the Spirit, to save ourselves by summoning up the faith that will satisfy God. According to your system, when our Lord on the cross cried out tetelestai! He did not mean "It is finished," "it is accomplished," "it is paid" (all possible translations); rather, He meant, "Let's see how that works," Because, as JOhn Owen says, for no one in particular; if no one had believed, His sacrifice would have been in vain. But in fact, the results were entirely assured. "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory" (John 17:24). Not one will be missing from that great crowd of Revelation 7 who stand before the throne, 'crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."' Salvation does not belong to us when we believe, it belongs to God who has accomplished it for us in every detail. Alleluia!

This will be my last post on this thread. I have no intention of getting involved with the sterile to and fro that characterizes these threads. I have more important work to do. I'm sure I won't have convinced you any more that your posts have convinced me. So it's best if I leave it there.

 

[Silverhair]

Really? May I ask you what is the sinner's warrant to come to Christ?

And yet it is plain that God does not desire that every single person be saved, since it is obvious that not all are. In the context of 1 Timothy 2:2-6, it is eveident that God desires the salvation of all manner of people: rich and poor, powerful and weak etc. And if the Lord Jesus came as a ransom for every single person, it is evident that it has not gone well. But in fact, He came for those whom the Father has given Him, and of those He will not lose even one (John 6:39 etc.).

Exactly so. 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' But it is evident that many people will not call on the name of the Lord, so, whether you like it or not, you are limiting the Atonement.

You have added a little bit to Mark 16:15. Certainly we are to preach the Gospel to every creature, but he who does not believe will be condemned - if fact, he is condemned already (John 3:18).

Certainly the Lord Jesus is the elect One of Isaiah 42, but 'we' are actually chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world.

I cannot accept this interpretation for a moment. We were chosen before the foundation of the world and predestined, not according to our faith, but 'according to the good pleasure of His will' (Ephesians 1:4-5; c.f. Matthew 11:25-27).Interestingly, the words 'faith,' 'belief'' or 'believe' do not appear in Ephesians 1:1-11. You have to read them in.

But the main reason that I can't accept it is that it means that God does not love anybody enough to save them. It is left to us, apparently without the aid of the Spirit, to save ourselves by summoning up the faith that will satisfy God. According to your system, when our Lord on the cross cried out tetelestai! He did not mean "It is finished," "it is accomplished," "it is paid" (all possible translations); rather, He meant, "Let's see how that works," Because, as JOhn Owen says, for no one in particular; if no one had believed, His sacrifice would have been in vain. But in fact, the results were entirely assured. "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory" (John 17:24). Not one will be missing from that great crowd of Revelation 7 who stand before the throne, 'crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."' Salvation does not belong to us when we believe, it belongs to God who has accomplished it for us in every detail. Alleluia!

This will be my last post on this thread. I have no intention of getting involved with the sterile to and fro that characterizes these threads. I have more important work to do. I'm sure I won't have convinced you any more that your posts have convinced me. So it's best if I leave it there.

The difference as to the warrant is that I believe any sinner can come to trust in Christ Jesus and you do not. Your theology says that only a select few have that possibility. Your theology teaches that those saved before time will, by God, have faith dropped into them so they then believe.



Come on Martin you can not be serious. Do you not think the words “all men” would include kings and all in authority. If you want to go with your idea of “that God desires the salvation of all manner of people: rich and poor, powerful and weak etc.” then would that not be covered by “all”, who is being excluded from the “all men”? It seems to me that you are trying to fit text into your theology.

You are are injecting your theology into these verses when you say “And yet it is plain that God does not desire that every single person be saved, since it is obvious that not all are.” You think the bible has to operate by your deterministic rules which is wrong. Why do you think you know better than the Holy Spirit. Quite frankly what you are saying is shocking to say the least.

Who do Christ die for Romans 5:6 for the ungodly, Romans 5:8 sinners does that not cover all of us? When the Holy Spirit say He came as a ransom for all 1 Timothy 2:6 why do you not believe this? Do you not trust the bible?

You do surprise me at times You point to John 6:39 but then misquote it so it fits with your theology. Bad form they Martin. What was the will of the Father? That Christ loose none that were given to Him. So who were given to Him John 6:40 tells us whom and why “that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I agree that many will not call on the Lord for salvation but that does not mean that they could not do so if they chose to. That is why the gospel message, the power of God, Romans 1:16 is to be preached to all the world Mark 16:15 so that those that hear and believe will be saved Ephesians 1:13. Yes those that reject the gospel message are condemned already, but you left out important text “because he has not believed” John 3:18 The ones condemned chose to reject the gospel message and thus are lost.

Are you not the one that referred to the “Five Solas” in post # 40 you know the one that says Sola Scriptura. For one that claims to follow those you do like to change what the bible says. I see that you agree that Christ is the “Elect One” so the only way one can be elect is if they are in Him. And to be in Him means that we are saved and for that to happen we must have trusted in the gospel message. Now I know this may be hard to accept but none of us were around before creation.

Interestingly, the words 'faith,' 'belief'' or 'believe' do not appear in Ephesians 1:1-11. You have to read them in. But do you know where you do find them Ephesians 1:13-14 which is the conclusion of the Greek sentence Ephesians 1:3-14. Why do you cut of those important words?
The fundamental difference in our views is in how one understands predestination. For example look at Ephesians 1:1-5.
Does this passage or any passage say that God has chosen certain people to be believers or does predestination simply mean that God has a destination that He determined beforehand. In other words God has determined beforehand what will happen to believers, those who are in Christ. They are chosen to become holy and blameless before Him. They are predestined to adoption as sons through faith in the Son.
When you understand predestination is not about God predetermining who will and won't believe but instead God has predetermined what will happen to those who do believe, then you have a completely different understanding of Ephesians.
You may not like the interpretation but that is what the text says.

Martin you should stop with the strawman argument the we save ourselves by our faith.

Do you not have these verses in you bible?

Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31 Believe on the Lord...you will be saved
Romans 3:21-28 righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ
Romans 10:9-10 confess...believe...you will be saved
Galatians 3:8 God would justify the Gentiles by faith
Galatians 3:14 receive the promise of the Spirit through faith
Ephesians 3:6 partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel
Romans 1:16 the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes
Philippians 3:9 that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith,...not of works

Salvation does not come from us because we believe rather as the bible says repeatedly we are saved by the grace of God because we believe in His son, Christ Jesus.

To deny these truths is to deny that bible.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The difference as to the warrant is that I believe any sinner can come to trust in Christ Jesus and you do not.

This is simply not so. I know I said I wouldn't respond, but this statement is utterly and completely incorrect. Any sinner coming the the Lord Jesus Christ in repentance and faith will be saved (John 6:37). This is what has been taught by all Calvinists from the time before Calvin!

The rest of your post I leave. If you can't get this right there's absolutely no point in proceeding.

 

[kyredneck]

All sorts of people do good works

The only 'sort of people' I'm referring to are those whom God has wrought within them, often YEARS before coming to faith.

 

[Silverhair]

This is simply not so. I know I said I wouldn't respond, but this statement is utterly and completely incorrect. Any sinner coming the the Lord Jesus Christ in repentance and faith will be saved (John 6:37). This is what has been taught by all Calvinists from the time before Calvin!

The rest of your post I leave. If you can't get this right there's absolutely no point in proceeding.

The problem that Calvinist's have is that they limit who can come to trust in Christ whereas the Lord does not. Look at your DoG or for that matter the WCF or LBCF. You want to impose your theology on the bible, error. The bible is the authority not "Calvin, Keach, Bunyan, Whitefield, Carey, Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones and a host of other Calvinists"

Does that mean all will be saved, no. Does that mean we save ourselves, no. God saves those that trust in His son and He desires that all do so 1Ti 2:3-4 and has provided the means for that to happen Joh 14:6. By grace through faith Eph 2:8 not by works Eph 2:9.

If you can not get that then you are just ignoring the text of the bible and elevating your man-made theology over the bible. So you are teaching another gospel.

I’m willing to compromise about many things, but not the Word of God

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The problem that Calvinist's have is that they limit who can come to trust in Christ whereas the Lord does not

The problem is that you have a caricature of Calvinism in your head and it seems impossible to get it out.

 

[kyredneck]

The problem is that you have a caricature of Calvinism in your head and it seems impossible to get it out.

@Silverhair is just another self-appointed 'Calvinist slayer'. We have several of them on board now, thinking they're doing the Lord's work while bashing His truths and answering against God, Romans 9:20.

 

[Silverhair]

The problem is that you have a caricature of Calvinism in your head and it seems impossible to get it out.

I am just saying what calvinism has said about itself. Do you deny the DoG or WCF or LBCF? What have I said about calvinism that is not true?

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair is just another self-appointed 'Calvinist slayer'. We have several of them on board now, thinking they're doing the Lord's work while bashing His truths and answering against God, Romans 9:20.

KY you have me misunderstood, I do not care about your man-made theology per se. I will defend the bible against any and all errant theologies and your man-made one is just one of many that are out there. My question for you is why do you insist in supporting false teaching rather than the bible? If you would just trust what the bible says you would clear up all of your false theology.

 

[AustinC]

@Silverhair is just another self-appointed 'Calvinist slayer'. We have several of them on board now, thinking they're doing the Lord's work while bashing His truths and answering against God, Romans 9:20.

His belief is 100% man-centered, with man being the center of eternity and God being the genie who grants men their wishes. He looks for sentences in the Bible that he can quote out of context and perhaps persuade the ignorant who do not know the Supremacy of God over all existence.

Whatever he teaches, it is far from God-centered.

 

[Silverhair]

His belief is 100% man-centered, with man being the center of eternity and God being the genie who grants men their wishes. He looks for sentences in the Bible that he can quote out of context and perhaps persuade the ignorant who do not know the Supremacy of God over all existence.

Whatever he teaches, it is far from God-centered.

Ah the usual huff & puff from Austin. The fact that he denies scripture does not impact him as the bible is secondary to his calvinist views. I really do not mind what he says about me as I know it is just his attempt to justify himself and his man-made theology.

Austin the fact that you continue to deny scripture says a great deal about you and what it says is not good.

Austin I will ask you the same question I asked Martin.

Do you not have these verses in you bible?

Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31 Believe on the Lord...you will be saved
Romans 3:21-28 righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ
Romans 10:9-10 confess...believe...you will be saved
Galatians 3:8 God would justify the Gentiles by faith
Galatians 3:14 receive the promise of the Spirit through faith
Ephesians 3:6 partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel
Romans 1:16 the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes
Philippians 3:9 that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith,...not of works

Salvation does not come from us because we believe rather as the bible says repeatedly we are saved by the grace of God because we believe in His son, Christ Jesus.

To deny these truths is to deny that bible.

 

[Silverhair]

I will admit that I am always surprised at how many Calvinists deny clear scripture but instead will cling to their man-made theology. God has thrown them a lifeline and they refuse to grab hold so as to be saved.

 

[percho]

FAITH IN A HUMAN ACT
In my opinion, the sin of all sins in ‘Romans Road’ evangelism is a terrible misuse of Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” No more glorious verse has been written in the Bible and certainly not anywhere else. I believe it with all my heart. I do not believe that it means what it is commonly interpreted and used to mean, that being, that man is saved by grace through faith at the point of an act of prayer.

All who pray are not saved. The Pharisee of Luke 18:11 prayed and obviously did so in sincerity. But according to Jesus, he was lost. “I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 18:14) All who pray in the name of Jesus are not saved. Many sinners have prayed in Jesus’ name in a moment of panic and in all fearful sincerity, but the next day was right back in their sin. They prayed because of stark fear, not because of repentance and faith. They were not saved. All who pray sincerely in Jesus’ name are not saved. There are people who pray in all sincerity in the name of Jesus who are not saved for they firmly believe that their hope lies in baptism, keeping commandments, etc., and the only faith they have in Jesus is that He was God’s Son. Even the devils believe that.

What then does Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” mean? If you will read Romans 10:11-12 you will see. “For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” In Romans 10:13, Paul is basically quoting Joel 2:32, which is a prophecy that Jew and Gentile alike shall have access to God through Jesus Christ. Romans 10:12 states this very thing. “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” Romans 10:13 is quoted by Paul to show the consistency of his doctrine with Bible prophecy.

The Greek word Epikaleomai means a great deal more than just the utterance of a verbal prayer. It means to invoke for aid or in worship, to look to, or to lean heavily upon. In short, it is dealing with genuine trust, not just ‘praying the sinner’s prayer.’ The publican of Luke 18:13 was not saved by “the sinner’s prayer” and the Lord in no sense implies that he was. He was saved by grace through faith in the blood of Christ which was to be applied to the mercy seat of heaven. His prayer was nothing more than an outflowing statement of that faith. So it is with us, “with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation” (Romans 10:10).

What comes out of the mouth does not flow into the heart, but rather what comes out of the heart flows through the mouth. Thus a man’s confession must be of a faith which is already in his heart through which he is already saved by grace. It is thus a confession of his salvation (Romans 10:10) and not an act of prayer by which he is saved as so many erroneously teach. The conventional use of Romans 10:13 by many Baptists is exactly the same as the conventional use of Acts 2:38 by the “Church of Christ.”

CAUSE FOR CONFUSION AND DOUBT
I have frequently heard preachers misusing Romans 10:13 say, “Now, this Scripture says call and you’ll be saved.”“But,” says the hesitant ‘prospect,’ “I don’t feel – I don’t think – I believe so and so – I don’t believe so and so,” etc., etc., etc.“But,” argues the persistent ‘soul winner,’ “the Bible says call.” So after much argument, the defeated ‘prospect’ ‘calls.’ “Now,” asks the “soul winner,” “how do you feel?” If the ‘convert’ says “Ok,” “Good,” “Better,” “Wonderful,” or such like, then all is well and they can go on their way rejoicing. If on the other hand, the ‘convert’ says, “I don’t feel anything,” then the ‘soul winner’ returns to Romans 10:13 and reminds him that the Bible says if you call, you’ll be saved. Now, what does that mean? The doubting but bewildered ‘convert’ answers timidly, “I’m? saved?” “Right!!” answers the zealous ‘soul winner,’ “and don’t let anyone make you doubt it.”

Now, beloved, if such a ‘convert’ has ANY confidence in anything that has happened, he has been led to trust in his act of prayer. Why should he not later question or deny his salvation? He probably has none. After all he was directed not to the Cross of Calvary, but to his act of prayer. If he takes the things of God seriously he could not possibly be either satisfied or secure in his own mind.

Great post Alan

Let ma ask. Is Joel 2:32 a pre or post second coming of Jesus in Jerusalem see V 's 27,28- And ye have known that in the midst of Israel am I, And I am Jehovah your God, and there is none else, And not ashamed are My people to the age. And it hath come to pass afterwards, I do pour out My Spirit on all flesh, And prophesied have your sons and your daughters, Your old men do dream dreams, Your young men do see visions.

Now is Rom 10:11-13 for the Writing saith, 'Every one who is believing on him shall not be ashamed,' for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich to all those calling upon Him, for every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.' --- in the same context as --
Eph 1:9,10 having made known to us (the ones called, the remnant of Joel 2:32, the first-fruit of the Spirit unto his coming) the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself, in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;
And as --
Phil 2:10,11 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth -- and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Considering-
1 Cor 12:3 wherefore, I give you to understand that no one, in the Spirit of God speaking, saith Jesus is anathema, and no one is able to say Jesus is Lord, except in the Holy Spirit.

And it hath come to pass afterwards, I do pour out My Spirit on all flesh, And prophesied have your sons and your daughters, Your old men do dream dreams, Your young men do see visions. Joel 2:28

Acts 15:16,17 After these things I will turn back, and I will build again the tabernacle of David, that is fallen down, and its ruins I will build again, and will set it upright -- <second coming> that the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and (the remnant) all the nations, upon whom My name hath been called (the first-fruit of the Spirit), saith the Lord, who is doing all these things.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The problem that Calvinist's [sic] have is that they limit who can come to trust in Christ whereas the Lord does not.

@Silverhair, I have never in my life limited who can come to Christ. I have told you this numerous times; why will you not believe me? Do you think I am a liar, and that in fact I go about telling people that they can't come to Christ even if they believe because they are not elect?
In fact, you have ir exactly back to front. Calvinist preachers invite all and sundry to come to Christ and tell them that if they will come to Christ, He will most certainly not cast them out. It is in fact God who has limited the atonement. Matthew 11:25-27; John 6:44; John 10:26; John 17:9; Acts of the Apostles 13:48; Romans 9:15-18, 22-23, 1 Corinthians 1:22-24; Ephesians 2:4-6; Colossians 2:13-14. I am sure that this is not a complete list; these are just the verses that came to me instantly. Others should feel free to add to them.

 

[37818]

Limited atonement with the disalloing the general atonement does limit for whom Christ died. And without the general atonement no one could know Christ had died for one in order to have any reason to choose to believe.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair, I have never in my life limited who can come to Christ. I have told you this numerous times; why will you not believe me? Do you think I am a liar, and that in fact I go about telling people that they can't come to Christ even if they believe because they are not elect?
In fact, you have ir exactly back to front. Calvinist preachers invite all and sundry to come to Christ and tell them that if they will come to Christ, He will most certainly not cast them out. It is in fact God who has limited the atonement. Matthew 11:25-27; John 6:44; John 10:26; John 17:9; Acts of the Apostles 13:48; Romans 9:15-18, 22-23, 1 Corinthians 1:22-24; Ephesians 2:4-6; Colossians 2:13-14. I am sure that this is not a complete list; these are just the verses that came to me instantly. Others should feel free to add to them.

As I have said before and I am quite sure you know this but just ignore it. God desires all to come to repentance but your DoG, WCF & LBCF restrict those that can come to faith. Martin look at what you say in your post. "Calvinist preachers invite all and sundry to come to Christ and tell them that if they will come to Christ, He will most certainly not cast them out." That is just a false hope cast out to all those that have, under calvinism, been locked out of any chance of salvation. They are not part of the calvinist, so called, elect. Should I call those preachers disingenuous, liars or just misinformed about scripture?

This just shows a low view of God and His love for His creation. If one is not part of your so called elect then they are toast.

Actually I am shocked at calvinists that seem to take such joy in denying salvation to the vast majority of creation. You work hard at finding reasons to deny salvation, but that must be because you think you are one of the chosen ones or at least you hope you are.


Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. NKJV

Are only some of us ungodly sinners, well not according to the bible Romans 3:23 “...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” And we even know who Christ was a ransom for 1 Timothy 2:6 “who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,” And the Holy Spirit even tells us why He became a ransom 1 Timothy 2:3-4 “ For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I find it amazing how hard calvinists will work to deny what the bible says.