Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Austin has to hope that the faith he claims is actually true, as according to calvinism man has to be given faith.
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Believing in Christ and Calling Upon the Name of the Lord
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Austin has to hope that the faith he claims is actually true, as according to calvinism man has to be given faith.
37818
Well-Known Member
Denial of the general redemption reduces Christianity to a purely subjective man made religion.
Explain by what objective means any one can know Christ paid for one's sins without having any general redemption.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Only if you hold to the unbiblical view that the atonement saves, which it does not. If Christ was not risen we are still in our sins we are still lost.
1Co 15:13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised;
1Co 15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain.
1Co 15:15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ-- who he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised.
1Co 15:17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
Christ died to pay for the sins of mankind but was raised so that those that believe will be saved.
Rom 4:25 who was handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification.
Not at all.
Instead it places our redemption entirely in the hands of God, just as scripture proclaims.
General atonement teaches one of two things:
1) Universalism
2) Man's capacity to make God's full payment null and void
By reading God's Word and having God make them alive with Christ.
"But God..."
At some point, 37, you are going to have to acknowledge this phrase exists in the Bible and it tells you what God does, without your assistance.
Finally, if you will ever truly analyze your position, you will see that you make the atonement particular as well, but you make man the sole arbitrator between whether the atonement is successful or a complete failure. You limit the atonement by human choice while I limit the atonement by God's choice.
Now, why do you lift man up to such a high pedestal? That is the question to be answered
Objectively it does. The alternative is a human determined particular atonement where man makes Jesus atonement null and void.
So, of those two options, you reject universalism and thus embrace the idea that your free will is so powerful that it makes Jesus payment null and void, this limiting the atonement.
37818
Well-Known Member
No. God solely does the saving and the keeping, John 10:27-29.
Without the general redemption no one can know one's sins are covered by Christ's finished work.
Without the general redemption how do you objectively know from the written word God your sins are paid? It becomes your subjective religion. Prove from Scripture otherwise.
37818
Well-Known Member
You know nothing of the sort. You still do not comprehend my view.
False.
I already told you how we know we are redeemed. God tells us.
Because God tells you.
*John 10:3*
To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
Honestly, the subjective religion is free-will doctrine of salvation. Your salvation is subject to what you choose or don't choose. You could choose Jesus at one moment and reject Jesus the next moment. If you slip up and curse God, then die, you have just removed your choice.
My grandfather on my mother's side was a Nazarene. He was always afraid that he would slip up and perish.
37, that is what free will doctrine gets you. Humans can subjectively make the atonement null and void at any moment in time.
Particular atonement establishes an absolute determined will of God that cannot be thwarted in any way, shape, or form.
What I hear you saying is that in your mind you think that God choosing you means you don't know if you're saved, but if you choose God, you know for certain that you are saved.
That's just lunacy on your part. I just showed you that you have it all backwards. You having ultimate control over your salvation makes your salvation entirely unstable and reliant on your good works to maintain salvation. Moreso, it has the power to make God's atonement null and void. You become the almighty one and God becomes secondary.
I understand that you are not being honest with yourself and the implications of general atonement.
37818
Well-Known Member
How is it not subjective religion you are claiming?
37818
Well-Known Member
You know nothing of the sort. 1 Timothy 2:4-6 etc.
We have gone over this passage and you continue to avoid your huge conundrum in this passage.
*1 Timothy 2:3-6*
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
First, you ignore the context where Paul is telling Timothy that all status groups and people groups are found in God's family.
Second, you apply universalism to this passage yet you also deny it at the same time.
If the all is universally true, then just admit you're a universalist and God saves/saved all humanity by His ransom.
If the all is not universally true, then you have made the ransom particular to specific people who believe, not all humanity. The all has to be particular to a certain group of people.
Here we are required to ask how that particular people come to believe.
The answer is either God chooses them to believe or the individual chooses God and believes his choice is correct.
If God chooses, then it makes God Supreme over all will of man.
If men choose God, then it makes men supreme over the desire of God and God's desire is thwarted.
Now review 1 Timothy 2:3-6 and tell me whose will is supreme, God's or man's.
37, you are stuck in a conundrum of your own making and you are refusing to admit it.
*John 10:3*
To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
Honestly, do you just avoid John 6, John 10, and John 17? Jesus tells us.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
This is error.
For the Sake of Honestly.
We begin with I Tim 2:1, from Gill, a believer in The Whole Counsel of God:
"all men; not only for all the saints, for all the churches of Christ, and, ministers of the Gospel;
"nor only for near relations and friends, according to the flesh;
"but for all the inhabitants of the country and city in which men dwell,
the peace and prosperity of which are to be prayed for;
"yea, for enemies, and such as reproach, persecute, and despitefully use the saints,
even for all sorts of men, Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, high and low, bond and free,
good men and bad men:
"because it cannot be understood of every individual that has been,
is, or shall be in the world; millions of men are dead and gone,
for whom prayer is not to be made;
"many in hell, to whom it would be of no service;
"and many in heaven, who stand in no need of it;
"nor is prayer to be made for such who have sinned the sin unto death, 1 John 5:16
"besides, giving of thanks, as well as prayers, are to be made for all men;
but certainly, the meaning is not, that thanks should be given for wicked men, for persecutors, and particularly for a persecuting Nero, or for heretics, and false teachers, such as Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom the apostle had delivered to Satan.
"But the words must be understood of men of all sorts,
of every rank and quality, as the following verse shows,
"in I Tim 2:2;
"For kings, and for all that are in authority;
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life
in all godliness and honesty."
"For the Sake of Honestly.
"For kings, and for all that are in authority",.... For supreme governors,
as the emperor of Rome, and kings of particular nations;
"and for all sub-governors or inferior magistrates, as procurators or governors of provinces, and proconsuls, and the like; "
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Great post Alan
Let ma ask. Is Joel 2:32 a pre or post second coming of Jesus in Jerusalem see V 's 27,28- And ye have known that in the midst of Israel am I, And I am Jehovah your God, and there is none else, And not ashamed are My people to the age. And it hath come to pass afterwards, I do pour out My Spirit on all flesh, And prophesied have your sons and your daughters, Your old men do dream dreams, Your young men do see visions.
Now is Rom 10:11-13 for the Writing saith, 'Every one who is believing on him shall not be ashamed,' for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich to all those calling upon Him, for every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.' --- in the same context as --
Eph 1:9,10 having made known to us (the ones called, the remnant of Joel 2:32, the first-fruit of the Spirit unto his coming) the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself, in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;
And as --
Phil 2:10,11 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth -- and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Considering-
1 Cor 12:3 wherefore, I give you to understand that no one, in the Spirit of God speaking, saith Jesus is anathema, and no one is able to say Jesus is Lord, except in the Holy Spirit.
And it hath come to pass afterwards, I do pour out My Spirit on all flesh, And prophesied have your sons and your daughters, Your old men do dream dreams, Your young men do see visions. Joel 2:28
Where you put, "-- <second coming>", I would put, "The Current Age of Jesus' churches.
CURRENTLY, THE aGE OF CHURCHES, WHERE THOSE WHOM GOD HAS CHOSEN TO sALVATION and TONE OF THE CHURCHES "THAT JESUS bUILT"
(sorry caps)
were God rebuilt The Tabernacle of David, i.e., Jesus' Kind of church and Filled Her with Shekinah Glory, on The Day of Pentecost (as a public display of the Inguralization Of Jesus' church(es) Existence and Mission.
Acts 15:16,17 After these things I will turn back, and I will build again the tabernacle of David, that is fallen down, and its ruins I will build again, and will set it upright -- <second coming> that the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and (the remnant) all the nations, upon whom My name hath been called (the first-fruit of the Spirit), saith the Lord, who is doing all these things.
Where you put, "-- <second coming>", in would put, "The Current Age of Jesus' churches".
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I see this:
King James Bible
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
different than:
"as the bible says repeatedly we are saved by the grace of God
because we believe in His son, Christ Jesus."
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
and according to the Bible, as Bible believers Know:
King James Bible
"For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
It is to bad that Gill did not just trust what the bible says rather than impose his theology on the bible.
To just make a blanket comment that what you do not agree with is error is a waste on time. Show what I said was error. I used your own theology to point out the errors you hold.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I understand that this is a hard concept for you to grasp but give it a try. Paraphrase, look it up.
As the bible says repeatedly we are saved by the grace of God because we believe in His son, Christ Jesus
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
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