KenH
Well-Known Member
Then I suggest you discuss it with the Calvinists.
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"Believing is the consequence of the new birth"
- Thread starter KenH
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Then I suggest you discuss it with the Calvinists.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I do notice that you say God is "absolutely totally sovereign" so I would have to surmise that you hold Him responsible for everything including sin, because if He is not would that not make Him less that "absolutely totally sovereign"?
As for your potter comment, perhaps you should read that in context rather than just trust what someone has told you it means.
Must admit your calling my theology man centered made me smile since I am the one that trust what the bible says, I don't have to read into or change things like some that are on BB.
KenH
Well-Known Member
I can read it straight from the Bible. It's pretty straightforward if one has spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I direct you to the following link beginning at the top of page 92 and continuing through the first paragraph on page 94:
Systematic Theology (vincentcheung.com)
37818
Well-Known Member
His view on the sovereignty God there can be no such thing as "free will." I am deleting his Systematic Theology.
Everyone on the board calls your soteriology man-centered. You're the only one not seeing it, or more likely not admitting it.
37818
Well-Known Member
@KenH
I believe you mean well to put forward truth.
"Believing is the consequence of the new birth" is a concept not agreed upon. Now believing is a consequence of truth. Also the new birth is a truth. So it comes down to what does one mean by "Believing is the consequence of the new birth?"
Now the believing in John 1:11-12 came before the solely God given new birth God had given as stated in John 1:13. [Here is a point of disagreement.]
I believe you mean well to put forward truth.
"Believing is the consequence of the new birth" is a concept not agreed upon. Now believing is a consequence of truth. Also the new birth is a truth. So it comes down to what does one mean by "Believing is the consequence of the new birth?"
Now the believing in John 1:11-12 came before the solely God given new birth God had given as stated in John 1:13. [Here is a point of disagreement.]
The new birth is a quickening of the dead in sins spirit to new life established in Christ alone, by Christ alone.
A dead in sins spirit cannot will itself to new birth. Jesus confirms this in John 3. Paul confirms this in Ephesians 2.
Why do people keep insisting that a spiritually dead in sins person can will himself to accept new life from God before God actually quickens that person to believe? How is it that a person cannot conceive that their assertion is self negating and thus impossible to be true?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
King James Bible
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord,
because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
through sanctification of the Spirit
and belief of the truth:"
1.) The Elect* and Saved**: brethren beloved of the Lord,
2.) because God hath from the beginning chosen* you to salvation**
3.) through sanctification of the Spirit
4.) and belief of the truth:
Any time, "belief", is mentioned, or for someone to, "believe", "choose", "have faith", "decide", etc.,
it is implied, by The TEACHINGS of HOW GOD SAVES SOULS
that there are other things that come, beforehand.
The dead lightbulb seems to come to life at the same time the switch is turned on,
but, logically and chronologically, THE SWITCH HAS TO BE TURNED on,
and "Quickening" Power Generated by the Power of Jesus Christ, THE SAVIOR,
Who Has Power Over Death, to GIVE ETERNAL LIFE to "as many" as God Has Given Him.
1).-3.), are implied and 4.) The Truth Believed is the Gospel of Jesus' Death, Burial, and Resurrection where GOD HAS GIVEN THE BELIEF.
Per the O.P., the dead soul Must Be Born Again, or Quickened to Eternal Life by God.
There is ONE WAY God Saves souls and it is He Who has Quickened you who were dead, prior to God GIVING Conviction, Repentance Faith-Belief-Faith-Choosing Power.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet:
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came,
sin revived, and I died;
There are no second, third, or fourth "gospels", later in The New Testament where God says, "believe" and the dead soul comes up with "self-quickening from-the dead" Power, of their own.
King James Bible, Psalm 110:3;
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,
There is WONDERWORKING POWER in The PRECIOUS BLOOD of THE LAMB.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I really did not know that you and alan were the only two on this board. But you have got it wrong there young man, my theology is bible centered.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well if you follow vincent chung then it is no wonder that you have such a distorted view of the bible.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
GOD ALMIGHTY is Inherently Worthy of Extreme Reverence, (pg. 94)
and it is a serious sin to deny Him of Proper Worship:
Exalt the LORD our God and worship at his footstool; he is holy…Exalt the LORD our God and worship at his holy mountain, for the LORD our God is holy. (Psalm 99:5, 9)
Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed. (Revelation 15:4)
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reference to Vincent Cheung, KenH. I will weigh his thoughts heavily.
Looks like he has this straight: (there is Only ONE WAY, ONE TRUTH, THE LIFE)
6. SALVATION..............................................................................................................................165
ELECTED ....................................................................................................................................165
SUMMONED................................................................................................................................190
REGENERATED..........................................................................................................................191
CONVERTED...............................................................................................................................193
JUSTIFIED....................................................................................................................................198
ADOPTED ....................................................................................................................................202
SANCTIFIED.................................................................................................................................204
PRESERVED................................................................................................................................206
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
92
"God's will determines all the choices and circumstances of his creatures, so that nothing is up to man's "free will." In fact, because God is completely sovereign, man has no free will:
All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalm 139:16)
The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)
In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)
A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)
All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)
Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)
All things are decided and caused by God – nothing is free from his control, and he has not chosen to forego his control on anything. The doctrine is repulsive to those who abhor the rule and honor of God, and so they oppose it. But the doctrine is a source of comfort and celebration to those who love him. Why would we want it any other way, than for God to rule over all things? And what better life can we wish for, than to be ruled by God? The doctrine contradicts the religious tradition that God does not decree evil or that he does not cause evil.
Of course, God does not make decrees against his other decrees. Since God is not insane, he has only one will, one desire. However, there is no problem for him to issue a decree that causes his creatures to violate his precepts. Whereas decrees are declarations of intentions about things that he would cause to happen, precepts are declarations of definitions, not intentions, and do not overlap with the decrees. It must be true that God decrees and causes events that are contrary to his precepts; otherwise, there could be no evil, but there is indeed evil. Therefore, God must be the metaphysical author of sin and evil.
93
This does not mean that God himself is evil. To metaphysically cause evil and to morally commit evil are two different things. One is a matter of ability to cause something, while the other is a matter of conformity to a principle. The Bible teaches that God is the one who defines right and wrong, and that sin is a transgression of God's law. Therefore, for God to commit evil by causing evil – for this to be bad or wrong – he must declare a moral law that forbids himself to decree or to cause evil, that is, to decree or to cause his creatures to transgress his law. There is no biblical basis to suppose that God has declared such a law against himself. Indeed, the Bible teaches that all that God says and does are right and good. If he says it, it must be true. If he does it, it must be good.
Therefore, since God is sovereign and there is evil, God must be the cause of evil, and since he is the cause of evil, it must be right and good for him to be the cause of evil. There is no divine law that says God would be wrong if he were to be the cause of evil. Why, then, do men assume that it would be evil for God to be the author of sin? What law would God transgress? He would transgress the law of men, or what men have imposed upon him to define what a righteous God must or must not do. This is the sinister truth behind the religious tradition that says God is not the author of sin, for if he were to be such, it would mean that he has transgressed a law that men has declared against him.
The necessary conclusion is that the doctrine that God is not the author of sin, or that it is blasphemy and heresy to say that he is, is itself the real blasphemy and heresy. Unless God is the author of sin and evil, he is not completely sovereign, and he is not God. Therefore, to deny that God is the author of sin and evil is to deny God. The Bible teaches that God's decrees and actions are always right and good. Since he is completely sovereign, and there is evil in this universe, this means that he is the one who decrees and causes evil in this universe. But since his decrees and actions are always right and good, then this means that it is right and good that he is the one who decrees and causes evil in this universe.
The very fact that he decrees and causes evil means that it is right and good for him to do so.58 There is no authority or standard higher than God by which to condemn him. If he thinks that it is good for him to cause evil, then it is good for him to cause evil. This does not mean that evil is good, which would be a contradiction. Sin is defined as a transgression of God's moral law, and when we say that God is the author of sin, we are saying that God is the metaphysical cause of a creature's transgression of God's moral law. God transgresses no moral law, since there is no moral law against what he does, but he causes the creature to transgress.
Morality relates to moral law. But there is no moral law against sovereign metaphysical power. It is right and good for God to metaphysically cause evil, just because he does it, and because he has not declared himself wrong for doing it. It is wrong for man to morally commit evil, because God has declared man wrong for doing it, although it is God who metaphysically causes man to do it. Therefore, God remains righteous, and the sinner remains evil. The distinctions are clear. There is no paradox or contradiction, and also no biblical or logical basis for objection against the doctrine. 58 It is because of God's absolute sovereignty that the existence of evil poses no challenge to the biblical worldview. See Vincent Cheung, The Author of Sin.
94
Does this make God a tyrant? If the word simply means, "an absolute ruler,"59 then of course God is a tyrant. And since he is the sole moral authority, the very fact that he is a tyrant means that he ought to be one, that it is good and just for him to be one. The negative connotations of the word apply only to human beings, since no man is worthy of absolute authority or capable to wield it. But God is "an absolute ruler" – that is what it means to be God.
The Bible calls frequent attention to the HOLINESS of God. The two aspects of this divine attribute place emphasis on his moral perfection and metaphysical transcendence. Both aspects imply separation from that which is morally or metaphysically inferior. To be holy is to be pure and righteous, and also aloof and separated.
These two aspects of divine holiness mean that there is no one like God. He is altogether different and superior. In connection to his holiness, the Bible declares that God is unique, and that no one approaches his greatness:
"There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God" (1 Samuel 2:2);
"'To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?' says the Holy One" (Isaiah 40:25).
Isaiah 57:15 is an inspiring verse that tells us how the holiness of God implies his "high and lofty" state of existence (transcendence), and still he is close to those who are "lowly in spirit" (immanence): "For this is what the high and lofty One says – he who lives forever, whose name is holy: 'I live in a high and holy place, but also with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite.'"
Many people wish to stress the possibility of fellowship with God, and therefore they favor his immanence in a way that denies his transcendence. Detecting this distortion, others who desire to maintain a high view of God overcompensate by denying his immanence. However, divine transcendence does not exclude divine immanence, and divine immanence does not diminish divine transcendence.
These two qualities are consistent with each other and with other divine attributes. Our passage says that God is indeed "high and lofty," and no one is like him, but by his own will, he is also close to his chosen ones, those who will humble themselves before him. An understanding of divine holiness should move us to fear God.
He is inherently worthy of extreme reverence,
and it is a serious sin to deny him of proper worship:
Exalt the LORD our God and worship at his footstool; he is holy…Exalt the LORD our God and worship at his holy mountain, for the LORD our God is holy. (Psalm 99:5, 9)
Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed. (Revelation 15:4)"
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Someone please tell me why the Holy Spirit would be called the Spirit of Truth and for that to not have something to do with one being able to determine belief of truth from deceit?
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Actually you just need eyes to read. You run into problems when you start looking for the "deeper" meaning of the text. Many just read Jer 18:1-10 but you should read on and take in 11-13.
A few things to note in these verses
1] God treats those that hear the words of the prophet and expects them to make real choices
2] He is speaking of the nations as a whole, Israel vs 6 & Judah vs 11
3] God’s dealings with mankind are declared to be conditional. vs 8 & vs 10
4] Man in general will turn away and do their on thing vs 12
37818
Well-Known Member
There is a prerequisite for which God will give the new birth. John 1:11-12. Matthew 7:21. 2 Corinthians 4:3. Mark 1:15. And it is not a work.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Because the bible says it. Hear the gospel, believe the gospel God saves. Why do people have such a hard time accepting what the bible says.
Man trusting in Christ Jesus is not man saving himself, as you keep saying, it is realizing that only God saves and He saves those that trust in the Son.
The Bible says much, but it does not say what your theology says...and that's where the problem lies...not with the Bible, but with you.
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