Berean Proof the Nicene Creed of 381 A.D. Challenge

[Hark]

No, God cannot die, though that flesh He took upon Himself did die a physical death.

Did He die or did He not die? How can He say this in Revelation if He as God was not dead?

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

That is His glory in conquering death as God. If He had stayed dead, death would look like it has won, and God cannot deliver us from death, but He was dead to show that God is not limited by death and is more powerful than death to conquer it.

The Atonement was complete in physical death, we know this, because Christ states "It is finished."

That means it was done. He did not go into Hades to suffer, or finish something, He went there to liberate the Just.

That is just talking about the atonement in paying that ransom; not His victory over death.

 

[Darrell C]

What passage are you talking about since many passages are in that quote?

The one you gave:

Scripture does not teach that.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

This is His glory.

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The concept that Christ gave up His Glory here is error. We do not see shedding His Deity, but veiling it in human flesh. God did not become a man, but took upon Himself the form of man. It was a legitimate human form, but, nowhere does Scripture teach that Christ was not God manifest in the flesh, or that He shed His Deity.

Thus my argument, we cannot have God ceasing to be God, or, He ceases to be God. Both simple and complex, but that is the truth we have to grasp.

Your arguments, whether intentional or unintentional, present three gods rather than the One God of the Bible in Three Persons. This view allows that God died, and implies that God ceased to be God in the Incarnation.

I think it is unintentional, but, that is what is going to be concluded when you teach as you have been. The further complication, as well as verification of this concept, is seen in your refusal to acknowledge the Spirit of God as God as well.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Did He die or did He not die? How can He say this in Revelation if He as God was not dead?

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

That is His glory in conquering death as God. If He had stayed dead, death would look like it has won, and God cannot deliver us from death, but He was dead to show that God is not limited by death and is more powerful than death to conquer it.

The flesh died, Hark, that is the point I have made several times, and will make it once more: Atonement was accomplished through the physical death of Christ...

...alone.

Above is a reference to His physical death, and does not imply that God died absolutely. Physical sin requires physical death, which is a simple lesson most miss in the Old Testament, because they equate the temporal nature of sin and death with the eternal nature revealed in the New Testament. When an Old Testament person was put to death for sin, that was in payment for the physical sin. It did not remove their sin, because they were...guilty.

Christ died a physical death for us, He being...

...not guilty.

On that basis His Sacrifice is accepted, whereas those who are guilty simply pay the cost of sin.

That is just talking about the atonement in paying that ransomn; not His victory over death.

So His death was not victory over sin and death?


God bless.

 

[Hark]

I also take that view for the most part, but, this does nothing to support what you are arguing.

Secondly, in view is the Son of God, not Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was born of Mary, whereas the Son of God is eternally God.

The concept of "begetting" does not apply to the Son of God in eternity, but in the temporal only. I believe we do see the Son of God manifest in form and dwell with men, but, any time He interacted directly His glory was always veiled, because there is a principle supplied to us which suggests strongly that men would die should they gaze upon God in His glory.

This is God coming into man's realm, quite different than man coming into God's Realm (Heaven) or presence.

You are not going to be able to impose the Body created in Mary into the Old Testament..

His name is Jesus meaning God is with us.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Even those that did not recognize Him as God...every fiber of their being knew this was God.

John 18:3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? 5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

That was creation, their bodies, knowing Him as God even when the sinful man did not.

Jesus said many things that testifies to Him as being God, and that was why He was condemned to death to be crucified.

 

[Hark]

And it is simply a common misconception that God cannot look upon sin.

You take the separation of man from God and impose that onto the Person of Christ, Who is in fact God.

You are presenting a Theology that suggests you believe in three Gods, my friend.

You are denying the Unity of the Godhead.

God bless.

You are making an assumption going beyond what I have stated.

I believe in Three Witnesses that makes up the One God.

For each Witness to be a Witness, they cannot be the same Person as the other Two Witnesses.

 

[Hark]

I'm sorry, but the Christ you are presenting is not the Christ I worship. That Christ was God before the Incarnation, during His earthly Ministry, during His physical death, after His Resurrection, and currently.

I thought you were arguing that He was not God during His physical death on the cross?

 

[Darrell C]

Did He die or did He not die?

Hark, I am not sure why you are having trouble with my responses.

This creates the necessity to repeat the same things over.

So let's stick with this one point for now.

The death He died was a physical death, whereas you are equating this to a cessation of sorts.

Nothing else needed to be accomplished in regards to Atonement once that physical death took place. Sin was paid for.

This does not mean that God at that time died. This does not mean He ceased to be God. This does not mean He was separated from God.

Because He was God.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

His name is Jesus meaning God is with us.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Even those that did not recognize Him as God...every fiber of their being knew this was God.

John 18:3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? 5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

That was creation, their bodies, knowing Him as God even when the sinful man did not.

Jesus said many things that testifies to Him as being God, and that was why He was condemned to death to be crucified.

Again you ascribe to men something Scripture only ascribes to God.

You just posted Scripture that attests to the fact that no man took His Life...He laid it down of His own power.

So again you introduce an erroneous concept into your Theology that has no Scriptural basis.

He did not, as you say, die because He claimed to be God. He died because He veiled His glory in human flesh, and went to the Cross of His own will. This will was a foregone conclusion before the world even came into existence.

Yet you are saying that men took Him and put Him to death as though they had the power to do so.

Again, consider:


John 10:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.


Men did not kill the Christ, my friend, Christ walked straight to it.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

The one you gave:

As I said... I had given many passages in that post, but if you wish to sidetrack the progress of that part of the discussion, so be it.

The concept that Christ gave up His Glory here is error.

We do not see shedding His Deity, but veiling it in human flesh. God did not become a man, but took upon Himself the form of man. It was a legitimate human form, but, nowhere does Scripture teach that Christ was not God manifest in the flesh, or that He shed His Deity.

And yet you were arguing that it was not the Son of God that died on the cross. I said both, remember?

Thus my argument, we cannot have God ceasing to be God, or, He ceases to be God. Both simple and complex, but that is the truth we have to grasp.

I think you have lost track of the "argument" ? I thought we were having a discussion.

Your arguments, whether intentional or unintentional, present three gods rather than the One God of the Bible in Three Persons. This view allows that God died, and implies that God ceased to be God in the Incarnation.

I think it is unintentional, but, that is what is going to be concluded when you teach as you have been. The further complication, as well as verification of this concept, is seen in your refusal to acknowledge the Spirit of God as God as well.

God bless.

I do believe you are either misreading me.

 

[Darrell C]

I thought you were arguing that He was not God during His physical death on the cross?

No Hark, I have been arguing that the Son of God, at no time, ceased to be God, which denies a possibility for the theology you are teaching that God was separated from God.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

As I said... I had given many passages in that post, but if you wish to sidetrack the progress of that part of the discussion, so be it.

Hark, I gave you the specific passage in the quote.

You are not really reading my responses, are you?


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Hark, I am not sure why you are having trouble with my responses.

This creates the necessity to repeat the same things over.

So let's stick with this one point for now.

The death He died was a physical death, whereas you are equating this to a cessation of sorts.

I did? A cessation of what?

Nothing else needed to be accomplished in regards to Atonement once that physical death took place. Sin was paid for.

No contentions there.

This does not mean that God at that time died. This does not mean He ceased to be God.

Are you equating God having died, ceasing to be God? I don't.

Men have died, and they do not cease to exist, so why would God be?

This does not mean He was separated from God.

When He took our sins upon Himself, He was separated from the Father for a little bit. How else do you explain His words of being forsaken when that darkness came? Did that darkness lasts forever? No. And so neither was His separation from the Father.

Because He was God.

He was and is God.

You want to tag someone else into this conversation? Maybe I am not posting my meaning clearly so I'll tag @TCassidy to see if the Lord will use him to assist in clarifying and correcting me if I am at fault in how this discussion got to become an " argument " as you seem to think it is.

 

[Hark]

No Hark, I have been arguing that the Son of God, at no time, ceased to be God, which denies a possibility for the theology you are teaching that God was separated from God.

God bless.

You are saying because I say there was a separation, that Jesus ceased to be God? That is you inferring that, going beyond what I have stated.

Explain Jesus words on the cross to the Father in having forsaken Him then.

 

[Darrell C]

I did? A cessation of what?

A cessation of God being God, which is what you suggest when you make His physical death into a spiritual continuation while that flesh lie dead.

If God in fact separated from Christ on the Cross, that would demand that God ceased being God.

Understand?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Explain Jesus words on the cross to the Father in having forsaken Him then.

It is a quotation from the Psalms, a validation of His Person, that He was the Christ.

Now, let me ask you a simple question: did God forsake David?


God bless.

 

[Hark]

A cessation of God being God, which is what you suggest when you make His physical death into a spiritual continuation while that flesh lie dead.

If God in fact separated from Christ on the Cross, that would demand that God ceased being God.

Understand?

I understand your point of view, but I disagree with it for what you are saying that I am meaning.

Jesus as the Son of God had experienced a separation from the Father for a moment, and Jesus felt that when He took our sins upon Himself and prayed so, asking the Father why He had forsaken Him.

You need to address the scripture for which I am saying this.

Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Explain that.

 

[Darrell C]

I understand your point of view, but I disagree with it for what you are saying that I am meaning.

Jesus as the Son of God had experienced a separation from the Father for a moment, and Jesus felt that when He took our sins upon Himself and prayed so, asking the Father why He had forsaken Him.

You need to address the scripture for which I am saying this.

Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Explain that.

Did God forsake David, Hark?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Explain that.

Trying to.




God bless.

 

[Hark]

It is a quotation from the Psalms, a validation of His Person, that He was the Christ.

I believe there was an awful lot of emotions involved than just citing a psalm.

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Now, let me ask you a simple question: did God forsake David?

God bless.

David said He didn't.

But for a time, Jesus cried the Father did.

 

[Darrell C]

David said He didn't.

And we know...He didn't. David came to understand that as well, for despite his sin and the tragedy that his sin brought about, he died at peace with God.

But for a time, Jesus cried the Father did.

And God no more forsook Christ than He did David.

Those who separate God from Himself create a concept that is simply impossible.

It would be equally possible to separate me as an uncle from me as a brother.

God is God, always has been, always will be, and He cannot die.

You seek to reconcile this simple truth, that though David speaks of being forsaken, the reality is that God did not forsake him. It deals with temporal circumstances, not eternal realities. And until we can learn to separate the temporal from the eternal in our studies, we will make the mistake of blending the two to create false concepts and doctrines not taught in Scripture. You have presented this...


Philippians 2:5-8

King James Version (KJV)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

...as a proof text for Christ shedding His Deity, and this is not to be found in this text. What is in view is the veiling of the Glory of God in human form, which is also made clear here...


Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


His Deity was but veiled, and this is the same thing He did in the Old Testament. Every occurrence of God directly dealing with man involves God manifesting in a form which can interact with man. Thus we can reconcile an apparent contradiction, "No man can/hath at any time seen God," and the fact men did see God in the Old Testament.

The reconciliation is that no man has seen God in His glory, not a concrete principle that no man has ever seen God.


God bless.