Goldie:
I thank you for posting, though I'm not sure if you think I don't grasp the meanings and nuances of the Lordship debate in particular. I'm really right there with you on most of the things you said. Below I've highlighted portions of what you said, upon which I comment below your quotes...
Goldie said:
JDale,
...Many people also confuse discipleship with salvation. They think that if you're not called, you're not saved...
One doesn't have to be either Arminian or Calvinist either in one's outlook - just a sinner who believes in Jesus Christ as his/her Saviour. Saved by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, and through faith alone, not by works. I'm neither an Arminianist or a Calvinist. I'm just a sinner saved by Grace. Even the best Christian is just a sinner, but a saved one nevertheless.
Once you let go of all the works and let God do all the work through Jesus Christ, you appreciate your salvation and right-standing with Him in a very special way, and He can accomplish more in and with you ....
We are rotten to the core really - and when God looks at us He sees Jesus' Righteousness and that's what brings us into right-standing with Him.
The works that we do as Christians should be to please God - that should be our underlying motive, our works should not be done as a pathway to salvation, as we cannot save ourselves.
Once you hold onto saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone...you're not so prone to judging them because you realise that is you, that can very well be you...
...We all stumble and fall...We are all merely human. Fallen humans...
Take water baptism for instance - it's a sign of discipleship, not salvation...
...Christians are predestined to become like Christ (after the rapture/resurrection), they are not predestined to salvation. So salvation is only through Christ alone, not through works that we might boast - and works means anything that we might do in order to be saved. It is my understanding that Jesus rather BECOMES the Lord of our lives as we grow IN GRACE.
The Apostle Paul who is seen as the greatest Christian to have ever lived even stated, "O wretched man that I am" and called himself the "chief of sinners". My bet is that you would've banged heads even with Paul....
And last, but not least - there is a lot of pride in testifying to one's salvation via Lordship Salvation because in effect one is saying "I've made Jesus my Lord" which means that Jesus controls your life and that you are TOTALLY YIELDED - which you are not, because no-one is. Why? Because all still sin...Therefore this type of salvation is earned. But salvation is never earned because it's a FREE GIFT that we just need to RECEIVE.
...Salvation amounts to belief and reliance in Him (total dependence and trust), not giving up one's sins. The true meaning of Biblical repentance is to have a change of mind, i.e., to change from unbelief to belief in Him.
(1) Discipleship, as you said, should not be mistaken for salvation. However, Discipleship IS (and must be viewed as) the proper and expected response of one who is truly saved -- Ephesians 2:8-10:
"
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." It was "prepared beforehand that we would walk in" good works. That's what we were "created in Christ Jesus for." NOT as a
means of salvation, but as a
RESULT of Salvation.
(2) I, too, acknowledge, that I am "a sinner saved by grace." Some, however, use that as an excuse not to think thru the very real issues and theological questions we are presented with -- like Calvinist determinism vs. Free Moral agency and God's foreknowledge. I cettainly don't think you use this as an excuse, but I would surmise that you have definite opinions about the extent of the atonement, whether or not one can "resist" saving grace, and whether or not one may apostasize vs. unconditional perseverance.
(3) That said, I fully agree with you that we are "rotten to the core." What more can I say? We are sinful, we are fallen, we are corrupt, we are lost -- we are TOTALLY DEPRAVED. With the Calvinist and every other Biblical Christian, I bow as the Publican, smite my chest and confess, "I'm just a sinner." From such, I can do NOTHING to contribute to my own salvation. Nothing. In fact, you said that "the works we do as Christians should be to please God..." I find myself with Paul in ROmans 7, not even able to do THAT! My works are no more than "filthy rags" as Isaiah called them.
(4) I COMPLETELY agree that, were it not for Christ' Righteousness, I could not be in right standing with Christ. When I stand before God, ALL that will give me entrance to His Kingdom is the Robe of Righteousness HE places upon my shoulders! And that robe was/is obtained ONLY by grace alone thru faith alone! I hope you have not tossed me into the category of "works salvation," as this would be antithetical to all I have EVER espoused, taught, preached and believed.
(5) I have not attempted to stand in judgment of anyone on this thread -- I have attempted to find those here who find themselves in the same general territory as I. That is all. Though, I have BEEN judged by a few...
(6) Please tell me, in what way could I possibly have "banged heads" with Paul?! First, he was an Apostle, so I imagine I would immediately defer to his considerable knowledge and authority if he concluded I was wrong. Second, I don't think I've advocated anything Paul would not wholeheartedly endorsed -- and had in fact preached or written himself.
(7) Water Baptism is meant to be a "picture" of salvation. It is a memorial of Christ' death, burial and resurrection -- and of our participation in it spiritually as we "die to self and sin, and rise to walk in newness of life." It ritually reenacts what has taken place in the heart of the believer. In other words, "it is an outward sign of an inward grace." Baptism DOES NOT SAVE, but it is intended as the first step of obedience in the walk of a new believer.
(8) It seems in your statement's about Lordship that you misunderstand [at least] my view of the matter. Let me explain succinctly, my view -- John MacAurthur can answer for himself:
First, we don't MAKE Jesus Christ Lord -- He IS LORD. Period.
Second, We don't come to Him for salvation on OUR TERMS, we come on HIS terms.
Third, we are not capable of living above all sin while in our flesh. See Romans 7. Even Paul knew that. But your statement above -- "Lordship salvation is saying...that Jesus Controls your life and you are TOTALLY YIELDED..." indicates strongly that you equate the term Lordship with "perfection." As IF... The fact that I acknowledge Jesus as Saviour AND Lord over my life in NO WAY implies I am His perfect servant. I struggle to be obedient and consistent -- and too often I fail. That does not mean He isn't LORD over my life and Saviour of my soul!
Fourth, you seem to exclude the idea that repentance is a necessary part of salvation. Yet, you state EXACTLY what I have ALWAYS said -- and what the Bible plainly teaches -- regarding the place of REPENTANCE in salvation! You said: "The true meaning of repentance is to have a change of mind, i.e. to change from unbelief to belief in Him." YES! Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin! They are not "different," nor can they be separated from each other. As Paul writes in Hebrews 6:1 -
"
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God..."
We make these terms harder than they have to be, and we split theological hairs that aren't meant to be split -- and it causes divisions that aren't necessary! Salvation IS a free gift. We must merely humble ourselves, and receive it. Hope this explains where I'm coming from...
Now that I broke my own OP intent, I return you to the regularly scheduled invitation....
Surely there are others? Don't hide in the corners, or secret yourself in the shadows. Don't turn your knuckles white holding on to the back of the pew before you! Turn loose, and come! Are there others?
JDale
