Bethany Divinity College and Seminary

[TCGreek]

O.K guys. all these research degrees and it seems that there is all kinds of misrepresentation on Bethany. This took me all but 2 minutes or less.

1) Luther Rice is accredited by tracshttp://www.lru.edu/Content.aspx?page=accreditation

This will be important for #2

2) It was said that the head of Biblical theology did not have an accredited PhD in Biblical studies.

Well, on page 44 of the catalog that can be opened with Adobe but I will save you the time and type it out.

"Dr. H. Fred Williams attended Clarke Memorial College where he received an Associate of Arts and a Bachelor of Arts at Mississippi college. He was graduated from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary with both a Master of Divinity and Master of Religious Education degree. He also attended Stetson University where hereceved a Master of Arts and attended Luther Rice Seminary where he graduated wih both a Master of Theology and a Doctor of Theology degree."

3) If you look at who contributed in developing their curriculum you will find those there whose credentials are accredited.

The misrepresentation and trashing of chairs at this school show me nothing more than people holding doctoral degrees yet speaking in a reckless and incompetent manner.

Some of you should be ashamed to say that you hold a research degree of "rigger" when you can't even get something as simple as this right if you even hold one. This is unbelievable. :laugh: There is no way there those who hold a doctorate here. I thought the lack of understanding in how degrees are developed seemed odd but then again one is from SA. What does one expect.

No need wasting my time here with this shallowness and closed mindedness.

:wavey:

I thought you were an honest seeker. What changed?

 

[spartacus]

I do not understand your question. Nothing changed except I began to varify what was being said from earlier post. There has been ample time and I was just browsing and noticed all the mis info from those who were touting their "riggor" of research and they do not know of which they speak.

 

[TCGreek]

I do not understand your question. Nothing changed except I began to varify what was being said from earlier post. There has been ample time and I was just browsing and noticed all the mis info from those who were touting their "riggor" of research and they do not know of which they speak.

Those brothers are more that capable of giving you a well thought out response.

 

[spartacus]

Really? Then why up to this point has their thought out point been so blatantly wrong? It doesn't bother me that one has an opinion but when you start saying things about people's credentials that are so easily verifiable then I do not know if they are more than capable of giving good reasoned advice. To say that a department chair does not have certain credentials when their lit. explains this discredits the person in demonstrating they have not full verse themselves on the issue. It seems, as has been stated, that they do not know how this or that but no real understanding on the administrative side of how and what an Educational System develops and processes education. For ex. I do not know how many non doctorates graded my MA papers or doctoral students who tell me they help go through doctoral papers. So, speak for them if you wish about their "capabilities in this area. The proof is in the pudding.

Again, I am talking about those who have thrown out their credentials as an authority in this issue. Having a PhD, DTh, DEd puts one on a bit of a higher moral plane when discussing these issues and advising people on them. At least they can research what they are refuting and not going on speculations and innuendos.

Anyway, I am done with this subject.

 

[Broadus]

O.K guys. all these research degrees and it seems that there is all kinds of misrepresentation on Bethany. This took me all but 2 minutes or less.

1) Luther Rice is accredited by tracshttp://www.lru.edu/Content.aspx?page=accreditation

This will be important for #2

2) It was said that the head of Biblical theology did not have an accredited PhD in Biblical studies.

Well, on page 44 of the catalog that can be opened with Adobe but I will save you the time and type it out.

"Dr. H. Fred Williams attended Clarke Memorial College where he received an Associate of Arts and a Bachelor of Arts at Mississippi college. He was graduated from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary with both a Master of Divinity and Master of Religious Education degree. He also attended Stetson University where hereceved a Master of Arts and attended Luther Rice Seminary where he graduated wih both a Master of Theology and a Doctor of Theology degree."

3) If you look at who contributed in developing their curriculum you will find those there whose credentials are accredited.

The misrepresentation and trashing of chairs at this school show me nothing more than people holding doctoral degrees yet speaking in a reckless and incompetent manner.

Some of you should be ashamed to say that you hold a research degree of "rigger" when you can't even get something as simple as this right if you even hold one. This is unbelievable. :laugh: There is no way there those who hold a doctorate here. I thought the lack of understanding in how degrees are developed seemed odd but then again one is from SA. What does one expect.

No need wasting my time here with this shallowness and closed mindedness.

:wavey:

Sorry, Spartacus, but there's something about which you're unaware. It's really not your fault because you could not have understood it. You do, though, exhibit quite a spirit of pride despite your lack of knowledge.

Let's take your point about Dr. H. Fred Williams. You put his degrees and LRS's accreditation together and, voila, you suppose you have a splendid point.

The fact of the matter is that Dr. Williams earned his degrees at least 10 years before LRS became accredited. In fact, he was chairman of the board of trustees as of 1968. Before they even applied for accreditation, they dropped the Master of Theology degree and the Doctor of Theology degree. Why? Because they were not actually research degrees, as the nomenclature indicated. At Luther Rice, they were basically professional degrees, not research degrees. In other words, a master of divinity and a doctor of ministry are considered "professional" degrees because they deal with practical aspects of a profession, such as the doctor of medicine degree. On the other hand, the master of theology and the doctor of theology degrees are considered research, academic degrees. LRS dropped the doctor of theology degree because they could not be accredited with it. BTW, LRS achieved accreditation with TRACS somewhere around 1985. It might have been a couple of years earlier, but I don't remember.

Check to see when Dr. Williams earned his "doctor of theology." It is really nothing more than a doctor of ministry, a degree which, BTW, is a fine degree for ministry, but it is not an academic research degree needed to head a seminary. Luther Rice achieved accreditation with the master of divinity and doctor of ministry degrees, degrees which focus upon preparation for ministry, not teaching in an academic setting. When I was student at LRS, I asked Dr. Flanagan, president of LRS, if the seminary would ever offer a ThD or a PhD. He said probably never, because they were completely different degrees and the seminary was not equipped to handle them. I appreciated his integrity.

Lest you think I still don't know what I'm talking about, I have both a doctor of ministry from LRS (1992) and a doctor of philosophy from SBTS (2003). I'm simply writing out of my experience, not something I read and think I understand. BTW, the difference between my two degrees is night and day in knowledge, research, and effort.

You cannot do it, I realize, but I wish you could got to Luther Rice's library in Lithonia, Georgia, and look at the dissertations written before, say, 1980. Many are nothing more than the transcribed sermons of a preacher going through a book of the Bible or a topical series of sermons. My DMin supervisor used to complain about the quality of work accepted in those days. I want to emphasize, though, that the LRS of today is miles beyond the LRS of the 1960's and 1970's in both academics and credibility. It is, indeed, a good school. Early on, they had good intentions but didn't "have it together."

So, indeed, by using the example of Fred Williams and LRS in support of Bethany's credibility, you have really made my point. Please, if you are seeking solid training, look elsewhere. Don't waste your time and your money. If you're like most of us, you have an abundance of neither. Use them wisely, my brother.

Bill

 

[UZThD]

Sorry I am unclear here for I am quite naive in this area. As I understand when one does a dissertation in the US particular one has to check and see if someone has done it already. When it is bound and passes oral or whatever it is then cataloged. It is then available fort inter library loan.

I am wandering if non-accredited schools can catalog dissertations. If they can then this is certainly a discrepancy on their part for not authenticating heir claims for high academic standards.

===

I don't know whether a dissertation is required to be from an accredited school to be on a library loan. I doubt thAT. I do know that TREN lists both sorts and sells them. I am not saying that a good dissertation could not be done in a unaccredited school.

===

Again, I am lost when it comes to this area. I know there is a search one does to make sure one is not using the same thesis. I had a prof. that had to stop his doctorate because someone had done the same thing and submitted it before him. In so doing it made all the work useless for what he was doing and I think they granted him a MTh. This was in Montreal. The name escapes just now.

===

A good literature review should be done by the student before the subject is found acceptable to a dissertational committee. There are tools in theological libraries to do that. It is the student's fault if he does not discover that his precise topic/thesis already has been much covered. But , really I think there is no topic w=hich has not already been treated. It is acceptable if a new opinionor slant on a topic is to be written or a new methodology is to be used. EG, the issue of whether Luther thought that God suffers in Christ has been much discussed, yet Ngien wrote his dissertation for Toronto on that very subject. Its a good read: The Suffering of God According to Martin Luther's THeologia Crucis. I read it to use in an ETS project.
====

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. Iron sharpens iron and I appreciate your insights and experience.

===

Thanks for the chat,

 

[UZThD]

.

Again, I am talking about those who have thrown out their credentials as an authority in this issue. Having ..., DTh, .. puts one on a bit of a higher moral plane when discussing these issues and advising people on them. At least they can research what they are refuting and not going on speculations and innuendos.

Anyway, I am done with this subject.[/quote]

===

Must be me as I know not another here with the D.Th. So,

1) I am not "throwing" my degree out as an authority on Bethany of Dothan. UZTHD is my sig because this is a site which discusses degrees. I never said I was right on any topic because of my Unizul qualification. I list above my reasons for my opinion about the B. of D. doc. I don't think you've answered these reasons.

2) I am interested in knowing my mistakes. So, if you can prove that what I've said is wrong, please give your proof.

 

[UZThD]

Luther Rice before it was accredited offered a ThD. If I remember rightly, Zodhiates has his ThD from LR.

But when LR sought TRACS accreditation, as I understand it, LR was required to give up the ThD because the LR faculty did not have a sufficient depth to do that doc.

Around 2001 I entered the DMin in a TRACS school because it was offered in Bible. While in it, it lost accreditation. I called and spoke to Fitzgerald who runs TRACS. HE told me that one of the reasons the school failed was that it had insufficient faculty with accredited terminal docs in the area they taught.

Those observations should alert a person to one of the reasons why a Bethany doc in Bib/Theol is not credible. [NOTE: I did not say in Praxis.] By any standard used by any recognized accrediting agency and/or by any accredited school Bethany lacks a faculty capable of supervising the degree programs it offers.

I would not be so adament about B's BA in Bib or even Masters in Praxis.

The issue of faculty must be tough for smaller schools as a faculty expects to be paid. If I had my way, many faculty , like many pastors, would be bivocational or would gratuitously teach.. Of course, that's easy for an old buzzard like me to say who is on a teacher's pension and SS retirement.

BTW, did anyone take up the challenge: If a masters from Bethany of Dothan in Bib/Theol is credible, then name three grads of such who by the strength of that Bethany experience have entered and completed an accredited doc in Bib/Theol.

No one did ??...what a surprise:laugh:

 

[spartacus]

schools can reissue degrees with minimal adjustments or fees. Again the accreditation has become the issue and not what are the standards. No body has a lock on a PhD and what the requirements are. Look at the History of the development of degrees. All are involve in research. One may be in a field using turbian or APA. An all acadmic research is not higher than a degree with statistical data. They are both difficult and it takes as much effort and reasoning.

I understand that if one wants to work in an Accredited school one will have to have an Accredited degree. As for me, I could teach with my Masters degree and I really have no interest in teaching doctoral students. I have no intentions of teaching period. By the way there are only three tracks. I cannot take biblical tract because I do not have bible focused MA. So, they are very willing not to admit those who do not meet certain standards. The only degrees I believe I qualify for is in education.

I have look at Whitefield and LBU and they are the same thing. How is Bethany a lesser Distance Learning than any others when they are all using similar methods. Also, I have been told that the dissertation is paced with a committee.

 

[Broadus]

all schools are unaccredited before accreditation. The fact that they are accredited now credibility to the degree. I am fully aware of what I am talking about. In fact, an institution can reissue their degree in the year of accreditation. They usually require a fee. once again you demonstrate you are not well versed in these matters.

I know plenty of people who have degrees prior to accreditation who teach in accredited school

It amazes me that you keep making these unsupported statements as though that settles the matter. When whatever support you put forth is rebutted and shown to be misinformed, you simply make other unsupported statements.

You know "plenty of people who have degrees prior to accreditation who teach in accredited school." Outside of Bob Jones grads, who are they, where and when did they earn their degrees, and where do they now teach. Since you know plenty, it should not be hard to come up with several.

Also, please give me the names of institutions which you know of which have reissued degrees once they've become accredited. You may be right about this, but it is something new to me.

Concerning Bethany itself, name a graduate with an advanced degree from Bethany who is teaching at an accredited institution as a result of Bethany's degree. In other words, their Bethany degree is their terminal degree.

Bethany is not accredited and cannot be accredited as it now is. It has "affiliate status" with the Association for Biblical Higher Education, a legitimate accrediting agency. From the ABHE site comes this: "The primary focus of the Association for Biblical Higher Education is accreditation, but non-member institutions may also relate to the Association through an Affiliate Status. This affords affiliate institutions the opportunity to take advantage of many of the programs and services that the Association provides without becoming an accredited member. Affiliation with the Association is not to be confused with accreditation." The bold and italics are original to the site. It is ABHE's emphasis, not mine.

Bethany does not have applicant status, it does not have candidate status, and, obviously, it does not have accredited status. Yet the school has been around since 1973, under a different name before moving to Alabama. So please, don't talk about schools' not having accredited status at their beginning. Everyone knows that. However, those who want accreditation don't wait 35 years to apply.

It's your time and it's your money. Go the easy, cheap route if you like. Bethany will be perfect. However, God's ministry deserves better.

I am really trying to be charitable to you because I really think that deep down you want to do what is right. However, you are making it difficult to be charitable.

Bill

Edit: It looks like you edited your comments while I was responding to your quote above.

 

[UZThD]

worn out

S.

you do not respond to arguments made to counter yours. You say I, DTh, have asserted incorrect things. OK, prove it.

Until then, :wavey:

 

[mcdirector]

I've stayed out of most of these arguments mmmm discussions . BUT I have served on accreditation teams for SACS and it is not routine for schools to reissue diplomas for fees after the schools have become accredited.

Accreditation dates mean that the school was accredited when the student went there -- not before, not after, but during. To reissue diplomas would, IMHO, raise red flags at the very least.

What Broadus said about affiliation is very true. It opens doors for things like the availability to a pool of application candidates or insurance discounts or wholesale books.

Some schools also form with the intent to become accredited very quickly AND they do accomplish that feat in short order.

 

[spartacus]

Institutions do reissue degrees if the standard has not changed. On occasion the institution will require an additional course work that may have been lacking but it is quite easy to upgrade if you will.

I had at the beginning asked what the qualifications for an acceptable degree. Having served on SACS you will realize that campuses and library are big, big issues.

I understand some of these things. How do you determine quality? All I am hearing is the negative but no-one is stating in the affirmative their reasoning.

Whitefield is good because why? Sproul attended? They issue tapes and video along with lots of reading. The only question I hear is, Where is the accountability? Where is the accountability in the accrediting schools. DO the accrediting agencies go in and randomly select doctoral papers to see if they are actually at the level they are suppose to be.

I could ask what is the criteria for an accrediting agency. I m just trying to get opinions on practical things and not philosophical things such as, "How can a prof. look at this many papers?", or Where is accountability? I want to know about the courses themselves and the requirements they require. I think we all acknowledge that within the Christian Education there are weaknesses and if we are comparing on accreditation then we have to acknowledge that ATS is the Gold standard because it is the most difficult to obtain.

Why do schools go for the easier and cheaper way out in these regional schools? The very criticisms for non accredited schools can be applied to those schools who are deficient in obtaining an ATS accreditation.

What about those who go to third world countries to obtain a degree because they do not meet or could not pass entry exams. Do we look at their degree as substandard. There is much double standard being thrown out .

This has been the great problem that no-one has been able to think through. I personally think testing is not an accurate indicator to one's ability to conduct research or even develop by dissertation the lack therof. The Dr. is education not an I am already there so see degree.

 

[Paul33]

Sparticus,

It seems that your mind is made up. Having read your posts and having observed your deficiencies in the English language, I would heartily recommend Bethany for you. I think that you would fit right in and that the degree would be appropriate to your level of proficiency.

I wish you well.

Blessings!

 

[spartacus]

Greetings Paul,

My whole thing of writing on this was to get some of you to do something beside criticize and give explanations. All I see on these forums is critical attitudes and lack of defending ones position. You jump in and say my mind is made up. I have defended in the affirmative. I suppose you know something that you would like to add. Your pettiness on writing which is on a forum is just a infantile argument. Thank you anyway, I will pay more attention.

There has been no proof on this discussion that Bethany is substandard except they are not accredited. Why don't you respond to my last post and show us you have the analytical skills to debate.

I do not know if I will go to Bethany. I just stated I was thinking of it. I have been using Bethany to show the contradictions of those posting.

What degrees do you have Paul and where are they from? I had to do a research project to "earn" my MA. I couldn't skate through Seminary doing 15 to 17 page introductions to subjects as many Seminary Master's degree do.

 

[StefanM]

What degrees do you have Paul and where are they from? I had to do a research project to "earn" my MA. I couldn't skate through Seminary doing 15 to 17 page introductions to subjects as many Seminary Master's degree do.

A large number of secular universities are starting to grant MAs without a thesis. PhDs all still require dissertations, but the MA can often be done entirely by coursework.

 

[UZThD]

Greetings Paul,

.

There has been no proof on this discussion that Bethany is substandard

===

What proof do you have that it is not?

 

[UZThD]

Greetings Paul,



There has been no proof on this discussion that Bethany is substandard except they are not accredited.


===

1) Bethany masters grads in Bible cannot do accredited docs in Bible

If you doubt this name some.


2) Bethany doc grads in Bible cannot not teach Bible in accredited schools

If you doubt this name some who do


3) Bethany grads cannot use scholarly research tools which use Biblical languages in their class and dissertational writing

If you doubt this explain how it is done without languages


4) TRACS accreditational reqs, which Bethany cannot meet, are worthy.

If you doubt that say why.






On the other hand what is your proof that Bethany is not substandard ? Just because you say so?

Better yet, go do Dothan and show us the utility and quality that degree has.

 

[spartacus]

Answer my statements on the accreditation orgs that are substandard to ATS.

These are very basic examples. The issue of accreditation is not who has greater degree credibility but to government funding. DO a history on this issue. :sleep: :sleep Do some research on the credibility issues on indebtedness Accredited schools are putting students into.

Anyway, I am tired of debating those who are just responding from the hip. Good- bye. I will leave this forum

 

[UZThD]

Answer my statements on the accreditation orgs that are substandard to ATS.

These are very basic examples. The issue of accreditation is not who has greater degree credibility but to government funding. DO a history on this issue. :sleep: :sleep Do some research on the credibility issues on indebtedness Accredited schools are putting students into.

Anyway, I am tired of debating those who are just responding from the hip. Good- bye. I will leave this forum

===

I am no avid supporter of ATS!! I am a fan of TRACS. Just which standard now specifically of one is lower than the other...huh? Give a specific.

If ATS is bad or any other accreditor , just how does that make Bethany good?

Where's your proof that Bethany is not substandard to accredited schools...huh? Again you fail to respond. That's because you cannot! All you do is dance from one unproven assertion to another.

FOCUS NOW , TRY TO ANSWER:

Name the Bethany masters grads in Bible who have finished accredited docs...huh? YOU CANNOT because Bethany is substandard!

Name the Bethany grads who teach Bible in accredited schools...huh? YOU CANNOT because Bethany is substandard!

Explain why Bethany which requires no languages for the Bib PhD is the equal of schools that do. YOU CANNOT because Bethany is substandard!

Explain why Bethany is not substandard when it has no more chance of meeting accreditational requirements of ANY approved accreditor than I have of jumping to the moon . YOU CANNOT because Bethany is substandard........ hello, anyone home???

Oh yes, every last respected expert in the RA, ATS, and TRACS and accredited schools too are wrong and YOU are right. What a joke!

You're all smoke... so, yes Bye, bye, , good riddance, and hahahahahahahahahahahaha.