Bethany Divinity College and Seminary

[mcdirector]

Answer my statements on the accreditation orgs that are substandard to ATS.

These are very basic examples. The issue of accreditation is not who has greater degree credibility but to government funding. DO a history on this issue. :sleep: :sleep Do some research on the credibility issues on indebtedness Accredited schools are putting students into.

Anyway, I am tired of debating those who are just responding from the hip. Good- bye. I will leave this forum

You've got 20 posts at this point, AND you are already tired of debating the learned men on this forum. I'm not quite speechless, but nearly. These men are learned and have my respect. They are not shooting from the hip, but are gleaning from a wealth of knowledge that they are willing to share.

 

[spartacus]

I just think I've made my point in a comparative analysis on Accreditation associations compared to ATS and degrees qualifications in this country compared to those of third world countries.

I respect the opinions of those given. But I want to know how one defines the standard. Maybe I should have asked, "What is the minimum requirement for a Master's, Doctor. I also asked, "Is the PhD, DEd the issue?

If people want to opine on those fine. I may be coming from an educational perspective engaging with Philosophy or Bibliologist. If that is the case I do not expect everyone to understand the angle I am coming from. It could be those who have posted are right and we are just talking past each other.

In any case there is a new thread and thought I would be more informative and dialogical than the more aggressive debating tact I have done here.

Maybe after my 40th B-day a calm gene kicked in. Maybe I just decided to be more Socratic.

BLessings

 

[scguy1]

You might want to think about Columbia Evangelical Seminary. I don't think the rigor or the credentials of the faculty are in question. In addition you are provided with mentors along the way. They are very reasonably priced and affordable. You can also with thier assistance custom build a degree program, something very unique espescially if you want to really develop serious expertise in a given area of study.:godisgood:

I, too, am considering a nontraditional seminary. Why would Plain Old Bill and TomVols endorse Columbia Evangelical Seminary but not Covington Theological Seminary? Neither are accredited. Also, where would you put Luther Rice University in that mix since they are TRACS accredited but not ATS accredited? Thanks for your input!

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Another reason for my endorsement of CES is I have seen the work of some of thier students and graduates and have been very impressed. They seem more interested in digging a little deeper then just doing good enough.:thumbs:

 

[UZThD]

I, too, am considering a nontraditional seminary. Why would Plain Old Bill and TomVols endorse Columbia Evangelical Seminary but not Covington Theological Seminary? Neither are accredited. Also, where would you put Luther Rice University in that mix since they are TRACS accredited but not ATS accredited? Thanks for your input!

===

Can't speak for that Old Bill and Tom

But, this old Bill, to avoid confusing B. of D. with that good other Bethany,

asks:

Which administrator in Dothan has an accredited doc as has Walston the CES administrator?

Who in Dothan teaches Bible/Theology with an accredited doctorate as do CES mentors?

Why is it assumed that those who have themselves made such a successful effort to avoid the rigors and strenuous requirements of accredited Theological docs could themselves teach Theology with rigor and with strenuous requirements?

Which Dothan grads are able to produce such quality work as White who graduated from CES?

What grads from Dothan have entered TEDS, or other cadillac schools, to do programs in Bible/Theology as have CES grads?

What accredited school offers a doc in Bible w-out languages as does Dothan?

Why does Dothan persist in having standards so incredibly below those of TRACS which Standards anyone who can read can learn on the TRACS site?

But if none of these comparisons are meaningful to you, then , yes, go to Dothan.

 

[Rhetorician]

UZ ThD Response

===

Can't speak for that Old Bill and Tom

But, this old Bill, to avoid confusing B. of D. with that good other Bethany,

asks:

Which administrator in Dothan has an accredited doc as has Walston the CES administrator?

Who in Dothan teaches Bible/Theology with an accredited doctorate as do CES mentors?

Why is it assumed that those who have themselves made such a successful effort to avoid the rigors and strenuous requirements of accredited Theological docs could themselves teach Theology with rigor and with strenuous requirements?

Which Dothan grads are able to produce such quality work as White who graduated from CES?

What grads from Dothan have entered TEDS, or other cadillac schools, to do programs in Bible/Theology as have CES grads?

What accredited school offers a doc in Bible w-out languages as does Dothan?

Why does Dothan persist in having standards so incredibly below those of TRACS which Standards anyone who can read can learn on the TRACS site?

But if none of these comparisons are meaningful to you, then , yes, go to Dothan.

UZ,

Amen my brother. I never thought that you would give a good word for CES. But I don't know that I have ever heard you say one way or another. I was pleasingly surprised.

Amen!:thumbs:

sdg!

rd

 

[UZThD]

UZ,

Amen my brother. I never thought that you would give a good word for CES. But I don't know that I have ever heard you say one way or another. I was pleasingly surprised.

Amen!:thumbs:

sdg!

rd

===

As said once here, about two years ago, on a different forum, I and a DTS grad expressed extensive criticism of Ric's dissertation. Recently I told Ric that and asked him if ,in view of my unfavorable critique, he'd still want me as a faculty mentor. Ric pleasantly replied "each to his own opinion " and "yes." So, having sore hands from sitting on them, I now assemble materials to apply to CES and one another school to get back to business.

Walston demonstrates Christian charity at work.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Outstanding UzThd,,,life is full of little surprises and blessings.I have always admired your educational philosophy. And I would pick you and Rhet depending on couses being worked for mentors since it would gauruntee me a 1st class education.:godisgood:

 

[UZThD]

POB

Thanks!

 

[paidagogos]

Qualitative difference

I, too, am considering a nontraditional seminary. Why would Plain Old Bill and TomVols endorse Columbia Evangelical Seminary but not Covington Theological Seminary? Neither are accredited. Also, where would you put Luther Rice University in that mix since they are TRACS accredited but not ATS accredited? Thanks for your input!

IMHO, there is a qualitative difference in the work required by Covington Theological Seminary and CES. I am aquainted with some people who taught for Covington and they are seriously deficient in academic ability. Furthermore, I know a man holding a doctorate from Covington who is only functionally literate in a general sense. Although CES is not accredited, which would give it wider outside acceptance, it does require a generally acceptable standard of work for a degree.

 

[TCGreek]

At one point I thought that if a school wasn't accredited, it had already received the deathknell--but it's good to see the guys commending CES.

 

[paidagogos]

Whose opinion?

I just think I've made my point in a comparative analysis on Accreditation associations compared to ATS and degrees qualifications in this country compared to those of third world countries.

I respect the opinions of those given. But I want to know how one defines the standard. Maybe I should have asked, "What is the minimum requirement for a Master's, Doctor. I also asked, "Is the PhD, DEd the issue?

If people want to opine on those fine. I may be coming from an educational perspective engaging with Philosophy or Bibliologist. If that is the case I do not expect everyone to understand the angle I am coming from. It could be those who have posted are right and we are just talking past each other.

In any case there is a new thread and thought I would be more informative and dialogical than the more aggressive debating tact I have done here.

Maybe after my 40th B-day a calm gene kicked in. Maybe I just decided to be more Socratic.

BLessings

My friend, I believe you are begging the question by asserting that you have made your point. I beg to differ. You may have stated your position to your own satisfaction but you can hardly claim to have persuaded the rest of us skeptics. You cannot speak for us.

Furthermore, it is ill manners, IMHO, to make your argument that perhaps the rest of us poor peasants did not understand your points. Talking down to your audience is always in poor taste. If we did not understand, perhaps it is due to your lack of clarity or preciseness in articulating your view. On the other hand, I have not read anything you posted so profound that it challenged my cognitive abilities or knowledge.

Someone, perhaps Solomon, wrote that open rebuke is better than secret love. The wisdom literature, although very ancient, is still good and valid for today.

Peace be with you.

 

[paidagogos]

In the beginning.................

At one point I thought that if a school wasn't accredited, it had already received the deathknell--but it's good to see the guys commending CES.

All schools begin as unaccredited. Some make the grade and others do not. However, we must remember that accredited is only one factor and a minimal benchmark at best. Quality is a highly individual thing and includes many factors in conjunction.

 

[Paul33]

Well, I wants to get me one of them their doctorates. I don't need no acreditit degree from some government regulatori agency. I just needs to study the Bible. It don't matter what others have thunk about Jesus in the past, I gots the Spirit and that's all i need. Come to think of it, I'll just print my own diploma and hang it up in my office.

 

[StefanM]

Well, I wants to get me one of them their doctorates. I don't need no acreditit degree from some government regulatori agency. I just needs to study the Bible. It don't matter what others have thunk about Jesus in the past, I gots the Spirit and that's all i need. Come to think of it, I'll just print my own diploma and hang it up in my office.

If you give me 500 bucks, I can arrange that for you!

 

[UZThD]

Well, I wants to get me one of them their doctorates. I don't need no acreditit degree from some government regulatori agency. I just needs to study the Bible. It don't matter what others have thunk about Jesus in the past, I gots the Spirit and that's all i need. Come to think of it, I'll just print my own diploma and hang it up in my office.

===
:laugh: . Funny but fitting to some

 

[Harring]

This is true. The reason for allowing persons in prison to study through Bethany is because Jaesus said, "When I was in prison you visited me not." The context of all Jesus said has not been herein stated. However, those who know the context, know that Jesus was referring to believers who were in prison. It is because of this that Bethany has felt the need for offering believers in prison an opportunity to study God's Word. For a prisoner to be allowed to enroll with Bethany, he must sign a statement that he is a Christian and then the statement must be verified and approved by the chaplain.

 

[Harring]

Can't say I'd recommend Bethany, but do know they allow past/present felons to attend. I correspond with a prisoner that is doing work there. I have encouraged him toward other schools, but due to cost etc. he has chosen to remain with Bethany. (He is also limited to the hand written format since they are not allowed internet access.)

As to the past being held around, that happens to other non-prison related bad/poor decisions as well. Just know it is done with God and let him deal with those that cause you headaches - He is much better able to deal with them than you anyway :thumbs:

This is true. The reason for allowing persons in prison to study through Bethany is because Jesus said, "When I was in prison you visited me not." The context of all Jesus said has not been herein stated. However, those who know the context, know that Jesus was referring to believers who were in prison. It is because of this that Bethany has felt the need for offering believers in prison an opportunity to study God's Word. For a prisoner to be allowed to enroll with Bethany, he must sign a statement that he is a Christian and then the statement must be verified and approved by the chaplain.

 

[Harring]

I realize that the degree sought is unstated, but in my opinion the quality of a school may be relected in its higher graduate programs.

These facts speak for themselves:

Bethany offers as evidence of its credibilty being listed in "Walston's Guide," but that is meaningless as anything can be listed there. Walston, himself, has a Bethany PhD which the last time I looked he did not list. Why not? Why did he feel the need to get a South African PhD to list?

Bethany offers a PhD with a concentration in Bible with no language requirement, NO accredited school offers a doc in Bible w-out languages. NO NOT ONE!

In its PhD Bethany teaches such basic Bible courses as Intro to OT and Intro to NT , why would a doctoral student in Bible be taking introductory courses in Bible?

No one on the Bethany faculty has an accredited PhD/ThD in Bible or Theology. Why would it be thought that a faculty which has not itself completed rigorous doctoral programs could teach a rigorous doctoral program?

The required length of the Bethany PhD dissertation is 20,000 words. While length is not the only criterion of quality in such writing, the Bethany requisite is far less than that expected in accredited schools. Doing a dissertation in my experience is a three year painful struggle which results in a product of around 75,000 words. The writing should be carefully evaluated by a group of tenured professors who themselves have undergone the trying dissertational process in accredited schools. It is highly unlikely that a doctoral dissertation in Bible could be of a good quality without using the Biblical languages.

One could always argue that despite these observations, "a student gets out of a program what he or she puts into it."

That may be partially true, but here we should not be asking what rigor does Bethany allow, but what rigor does Bethany require?

Must a school be accredited to be good? NO! But, The PhD or ThD is the highest academic degree. Therefore, that PhD/ThD program of learning should exhibit the qualities of the highest academic rigor.

Bethany does not!!

Bill G

I would like to take a moment to reply to some of the above statements. I personally spoke to Walston, by email, and he stated to me that the reason he did lot list Bethany was because he had earned a good number of degrees and he did not feel like listing them all, not that he had anything against Bethany.

Second, in reply to "No one on the Bethany faculty has an accredited PhD/ThD in Bible or Theology" is not true. Dr. E.G. Sherman, who chairs the Educational Theology Department, and serves as a Bethany professor, holds a Ph. D., from Purdue University, graduated 1986. Dr. Twanna Hall, Assistant Chair, and professor of English, holds a Ph. D., from Florida State University, graduated in 1991.Dr. H. Fred Williams, who chairs the Biblical Theology Department and serves as a professor received his Master of Divinity from New Orleans Baptist Seminary and his Master of Theology and Doctor of Theology from Luther Rice Seminary (now university).

Third, in reply to the statement "The required length of the Bethany PhD dissertation is 20,000 words" is true. After a visit to the University of Alabama Library, it was found when checking the doctoral thesis presented to the university by past graduates, there was a doctoral thesis consisting of only 25 pages. Others were found consisting of less than 50 pages. I personall saw these thesis. You can average 300 words per page if you double space. A thesis consisting of 25 pages would have no more than 7,500 words. It is not always the length of a thesis but the content. Thesis submitted to Bethany are reviewed by a committee made up from the Academic Board.

Fourth, let me reply to offering a doctorate with no language requirements. As for the doctorate in theology, if one would look closely, Bethany offers a Doctor of Theological Studies, and not a Doctor of Theology. This doctorate does not require a language. Now days, most of the classic texts written in Greek and Hebrew have been translated into English. Moreover, there are many, many tools today whereby one can explore the original writings without having to know the language. Bethany does require doctoral candidates to either be efficient with the use of the computer or complete a course in computer. One will have to admit that one must learn the language of the computer in order to use it. Therefore, it is a language within itself. I will admit this is not Hebrew and Greek, but it is a language. If learning the computer is not a language it provides you with a tool to research the original texts. As for the PH. D., requiring a language, I do not think this is true in all cases, and even if it is true in all cases, there again, I refer you to the language of the computer. Thank you for allowing this reply.

 

[UZThD]

poor research or understanding!

I would like to take a moment to reply to some of the above statements. I personally spoke to Walston, by email, and he stated to me that the reason he did lot list Bethany was because he had earned a good number of degrees and he did not feel like listing them all, not that he had anything against Bethany.

===

It would really take a lot of time and space to list his Bethany degree, wouldn't it:laugh:

===

Second, in reply to "No one on the Bethany faculty has an accredited PhD/ThD in Bible or Theology" is not true. Dr. E.G. Sherman, who chairs the Educational Theology Department, and serves as a Bethany professor, holds a Ph. D., from Purdue University, graduated 1986.

===
Swing and miss #1: not in Bible/Theology . So, your claim is untrue!!

===

Dr. Twanna Hall, Assistant Chair, and professor of English, holds a Ph. D., from Florida State University, graduated in 1991.

===
Swing and miss #2: not in Bible/Theology . So, your claim is untrue!

===

Dr. H. Fred Williams, who chairs the Biblical Theology Department and serves as a professor received his Master of Divinity from New Orleans Baptist Seminary and his Master of Theology and Doctor of Theology from Luther Rice Seminary (now university).

===

Swing and miss #3: LR was UNACCREDITED when Fred got his ThD :BangHead: ANY THD/PhD before LR was accredited IS unaccredited. So, your claim is untrue and you are OUT.!

===

. Thesis submitted to Bethany are reviewed by a committee made up from the Academic Board.

===

Which has on it no members with accredited PhDs/Thds in Bible/Theology

===

Fourth, let me reply to offering a doctorate with no language requirements. As for the doctorate in theology, if one would look closely, Bethany offers a Doctor of Theological Studies, and not a Doctor of Theology. This doctorate does not require a language. Now days, most of the classic texts written in Greek and Hebrew have been translated into English. Moreover, there are many, many tools today whereby one can explore the original writings without having to know the language. Bethany does require doctoral candidates to either be efficient with the use of the computer or complete a course in computer. One will have to admit that one must learn the language of the computer in order to use it. Therefore, it is a language within itself. I will admit this is not Hebrew and Greek, but it is a language. If learning the computer is not a language it provides you with a tool to research the original texts. As for the PH. D., requiring a language, I do not think this is true in all cases, and even if it is true in all cases, there again, I refer you to the language of the computer. Thank you for allowing this reply.[/quote]

===

ummmm, then Bethany of Dothan does NOt do what EVERY, EVERY accredited , evangelical seminaryin the USA does--they ALL (as in EVERY ONE) require Biblical languages to even BEGIN doc work in Bible!! ALL OF THEM!:tonofbricks: That makes B of D quite unique-- but in the wrong way. How wonderful for B of D to refuse to do what all those accredited, evangelical schools do! In other words a B of D doc grad cannot do what one beginning an accredited doc can do.

B of D sets its standard high: Do less .

Do you think that one without the languages can using those "many tools" explain why or why not harpagmos is an overlooked datum for functional inequality within the Godhead or whether the articular infinitive there is anaphoric? Simple task any Western Seminary MDiv grad should be able to do.