Better yet when did Christ DIE ?

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by PASTOR MHG:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TCassidy:
Wednesday, 14 Nisan, 31AD.

I agree with Doc Cassidy here.

The best way to find the actual day is not to count backwards from Sunday, but rather count forward from the Triumpal entry to the Upper Room. Search the Scriptures and you will see that every day is accounted for from Palm Sunday to Tuesday evening meal with disciples to a Wednesday cross.

Max </font>[/QUOTE]You are basically correct. Most so-called harmonies of the gospels are very accurate, save for a few, small, little, insignificant, misincule, minor details (like about half the conclusions, give or take! ). In a mis-guided attempt to make Our Lord be crucified on a supposed "Good Friday", most commentators, who like most of us, are merely "common 'taters", are faced with a dilemma, namely that the gospel records only 'fill' some five days of events, from the time of the triumphal entry until the time of the crucufixion on Mt. Moriah. In our method of reckoning time, which is basically irrelevant to the 'day', as opposed to the Jewish (and Old Tstamant, in general) method from sundown to sundown, as a 'day', in order to reconcile the irreconcilable, many of these have "made from whole cloth" a so-called "Day of Silence" or "Day of Meditation" on Wednesday to account for this. There is absolutely no Biblical basis for this, and in fact, it goes against a Biblical type (as well as the Mosaic Law, regarding the Sabbath).
Ed

 

[Mel Miller]

Ed,

Would you please explain in detail how the
problem of "five" days requires a day of
"silence" in order for the Church to have
been "misguided" in claiming the crucifixion
occurred on "Good Friday".

You are making a charge that should be
substantiated with facts.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[EdSutton]

The 'Levitical' Lamb was to be 'taken' on the tenth day of the first month,"6And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings." (Darby) or " 6`And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it between the evenings;" (YLT)
There has been a distinct tendency to got to another 'extreme', while rightly recognizing that our Lord could not have been crucified on Friday, in light of Matt. 12:39-40, and fulfilled the 'three days and three nights' prophecy to insist on a Wednesday Crucifixion to account for this, as being the only way to get in 72 hours, before a resurrection on the "First day of the week." However Jesus never mentioned any "72 hours" period, per se, nor does any other Scripture, leading me to think this, too, is a contrived attempt to "prove a point".

 

[EdSutton]

Mel, I type slow and am doing this in bits and pieces, as I have other non-computer things working as I do this. Please read the whole as a thread, and not as individual answers. Not a criticism, but my telling you what is going on, with me. Thanks, both to you, and to all.
In his grace,
Ed

 

[EdSutton]

What Jesus here, as well as Scripture elsewhere do tell us include the following. Jesus was without sin. One of the things this involved was keeping the Law of Moses, IMO. This is not to be confused with "the tradition of the elders", which he was accused of not 'keeping' (and in fact did not) when it conflicted with His ministry nad the Law itself. The tradition had become more 'important' to Israel, than the commandments, in some instances, if not many. One of the places this can be seen is the events around Passover.

[I think the people of that time would have made good Baptists; they were more concerned with 'pigging out' with the eating of the 'Feast' than with what the Scripture actually taught. (Anyone know of 'good Baptists' that can somehow manage usually, to make the services when a dinner is served, when somehow things can come up during a 'regular service' which divert their attendance?) But I digress!]

One way this is seen is in the use of the actual words of "Passover", "Unleaved bread", and "feast". "The 14th day of the first month, (Abib, or Nisan) 'between the evenings' is (and was) the Lord's Passover." (Lev. 23:5 Darby, YLT - referenced, not quoted here) The fifteenth day was known as "Unleavened Bread", and was the start of a seven day feast, with the first and seventh days also being "an holy convocation", which happens to be not said about 14 Nisan. I'll get back to this, but it may take a while. Something has come up here, (guess I'm one of them "good Baptists' I spoke of ) that may prevent me from getting back to this for a while. However like as unto Gen. MacArthur, "I shall return."

Thanks for everyone's patience. I'm sorry not to be more 'continuing' in this, and taking up so much time.
In his grace,
Ed

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by rstrats:
RightFromWrong,


re: “4) The Feast of First Fruits on Sun. He became the first fruits of the resurrection
1 COR. 15:20-23. “


You can’t really use the firstfruits wavesheaf typology to support a first day resurrection because the moment of resurrection did not fulfill the typology. That didn’t occur until the Messiah presented Himself to the Father later on the first day.

She can't answer you, she was banned for continually breaking rules, and yelling at people, name calling, etc. not a nice girl at all.

 

[Frenchy]

Now, now, Donna

Ephesians 4:25

"Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. 26, Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27, and do not give the devil an opportunity. 29, let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. 30, Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31, Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32, Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you."

 

[Frenchy]

Now, now, Donna

Ephesians 4:25

"Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. 26, Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27, and do not give the devil an opportunity. 29, let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. 30, Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31, Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32, Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you."

 

[donnA]

frenchy, since you weren't here you wouldn't know. I told not one falsehood about her. I just hope and pray she gets the help she needs, she was so angry all the time.

 

[Frenchy]

Not sure which is worse anger (which can be a result of pain) or being mean spirited and highly defensive. by the way was she angry about anything in particular. i can see if she was treated the same way i have been, she may not have reacted as mature. some people don't handle being accused of things they didn't do or to have their personhood questioned all that well. just pray for people like this. we are asked to show love and grace when it comes to peoples behaviors not to react the same.
Jesus said to LOVE YOUR ENEMIES!

 

[donnA]

You wouldn't know would you, you weren't a registered member, as frency , here then were you. You have no idea what your talking about then would you, since frenchy registered in March 06, and she was banned way before that. How would know one thing about how she may or may not have been treated? Rules are rules and people agree to them when they register, she didn't obey them.
Love your enemies, isn't that funny, how you can here, and I'd never even seen you here, and you started in one me on a thread I had nothing to do with? You made me to be your enemy before I even knew who you were, or before you'd even had any discussion at all with me.
So now, what did you say about love?

 

[Frenchy]

Why Donna are you making a big deal about nothing? i was trying to help you in an area that i myself (and others) have been helped in, many times by posters on other forums (many years back) and yet your responce went over board. i notice you have a problem with weight thread topics too. stop getting so bent out of shape and thinking everyone is out to get you. I have broken no rules that i know of. the fact that you are NOT showing a Christlike attitude towards someone who offended you (whether they meant to or not, and i didn't) shows you need help. i honestly believe you and Gina are just making yoursleves look bad by attacking me and not showing grace and love to someone who means you or anyone else NO HARM. get over whoever it was in the past who was banned and move on and treat others nicely and with the same respect you would want. I am sorry over and over again for correcting your spelling. i do see it must have work at least that has improved.

by the way i see people breaking the rules over and over yet they remain. in fact the longer you are here the better your chance is. that is how it is on all boards.

 

[Rachel]

Frenchy you REALLY should read and study this verse you have quoted in every thread I've seen you in. You are constantly antagonizing people on this board. You seem to like to cause division. Take your own advice.

Ephesians 4:25

"Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. 26, Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27, and do not give the devil an opportunity. 29, let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. 30, Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31, Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32, Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you."

 

[donnA]

I haven't posted a thing about people being out to get me, your the one who keeps crying about that, see the posts on this thread as proof. You can't make stuff up and not have proof, it doesn't work, try again. You are not showing a Christ like attitude on most of your posts, you constantly antagonize and accuse people. I don't really care about whoever who been banned, I only informed the person addressing the op that she would not be responding, then you jumped in in attack mode as usual.
Get over it girl. You weren't here you wouldn't know about any previous members would you.

 

[EdSutton]

I'm back, for the moment, at least. I will expound, if any consider it necessary on the colloquial use, in that day of Feast, Passover, and Unleavened bread, should any request it, but would like to get the basics covered first. Jesus' annoncement of Jonah would have surely gotten the attention of the hearers, they of Jewish background. The usual order had been reversed. He did not say three nights and three days, in the sense of evening and morning, and the usual way that time was reckoned among that religion, but the other way around, just like Jonah. Strange!

(As an aside, we are not told when the fish upchucked Jonah, but could and can now assume it was prior to sunrise, on the third 'night', since the context of the events in Jonah, would seem to imply that he was tossed during the daylight hours, given what transpired. Had he been pitched at or after sundown, he would have started with a 'night', not a day.)

 

[donnA]

frenchy according to scripture, I will not be responding to you further on this thread

Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

 

[EdSutton]

There are multiple passages in the NT which give varying words as to how long this time that the Lord would be or was in the tomb, as to his body, and hence, the heart of the earth, in the case of his soul and spirit. Our Lord dismissed his spirit to the Father around 3 P.M. solar time. His body hung on the cross for some bit longer, was taken down, by the two 'rich guys' who had purchased the spices to annoint Him, wrapped the body, and placed it in the tomb before sundown, which at that latitude and time of the year, would correspond to about 7 P.M. 'solar' time, in accordance with Hebrew i.e. Mosaic law. (Keep in mind, my earlier reference to 'Law' vs. 'tradition'.) While the 'legal' clock would have no doubt, started at what amounts to 6PM, the Sabbath, or any day, for that matter, 'Biblically' started at sundown. Nicodemas and Joseph were under pressure to complete this, for the clock was running, and fast. Scripture even tells of this in these words:

50 Now behold, there was a man named Joseph, a council member, a good and just man. 51 He had not consented to their decision and deed. He was from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who himself was also waiting for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 53 Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb that was hewn out of the rock, where no one had ever lain before. 54 That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near.
55 And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. 56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. (Lk. 23:50-56 - NKJV - text)

31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him. 33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. 36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

38 After this, Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body of Jesus. 39 And Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. 40 Then they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury. 41 Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. 42 So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews’ Preparation Day , for the tomb was nearby. (Jo. 19:31-42 NKJV- text)

The complementary passages of Matt. 27:57-66; and Mk. 15:42-47 tell us much of the same thing. I am not sure if it is especially significant, but would notice that Jesus never spoke of a "Preparation" Day per se, although He did speak of "Passover", "Unleavened Bread", and "Feast", which were all Mosaic terms.

 

[EdSutton]

My primary purpose in this thread is two-fold, although I am bringing in other things, as well. To establish 'when' our Lord was crucified, and to cover the phrase, "Between the evenings". Much has been written about this ambiguous phrase, attempting to 'set a time' for our Lord's death, and the time for the Passover Lamb to be slain, for I have seen some on the 'Net. Since 'between the evenings, is a slightly braoder term, it was taken, and I believe correctly, in one sense to mean afternoon, specifically, later than around 3 PM, as more definitively, and a 'greater' emphasis. I take the passage as it is written. The Passover was to be slain "beween the evenings", i.e., generally the start of 14 Nisan (Abib) at sundown, (or actually after around 3 PN, technicaly, on 13 Nisan) and the start of 15 Nisan. The Lord kept all the Mosaic Law, as I stated before, as well as fulfilled the 'types'. Ergo, He ate the Passover Meal or Seder, that evening, a type of His own sacrifice that would come that same day. His own 'sacrifice' was "between the evenings", as well, both as to 'hour', and day. He had to both partake, by law, and be the Lamb, as well. And He did just that.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by donnA:
frenchy according to scripture, I will not be responding to you further on this thread

Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Good point from another from God's country!

The rhetoric sometimes becomes deafening, on this board. I am not 'picking on any', but merely observing. Specifically, I am not referring to Frenchy, Donna, Marcia, saturn neptune or any other who has posted, in the least. I cannot 'respond' and see who wrote at the same time, so am pulling this from memory. Should I have responded and didn't , or you felt you have been 'responded to', and shouldn't have been

I apologize. If I missed any, and they did need it, -

Ed

 

[Mel Miller]

Ed,

In your calculation of the "five days" from
Palm Sunday to Good Friday, you will take into account that Jesus spoke of the "Day of
Visitation" on which Daniel's prophecy of
69 sets of Seven was fulfilled to the exact
day. This is critically relative to the 5 days.

Let me ask you this question:

What are the other O.T. prophecies which Jesus
referred to ON THAT DAY of Visitation and which could have been or were actually fulfilled at the very "time" He was speaking?

In light of your findings, what is the only
possible day on which Christ could have died?

Mel Miller www.lastday.net