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Bible Study: God's Foreknowledge
- Thread starter Van
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Reply to Jarthur 001
Peter tells us that Christ was known as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. Therefore God's foreknowledge of His redemption plan is from before the foundation of the world.
Scripture tells us God determined (predetermined) His plan so sometime in eternity God determined what He would do. If God always knew, then He never determined. So I go with scripture, rather than the conjecture of men.
Peter tells us that Christ was known as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. Therefore God's foreknowledge of His redemption plan is from before the foundation of the world.
Scripture tells us God determined (predetermined) His plan so sometime in eternity God determined what He would do. If God always knew, then He never determined. So I go with scripture, rather than the conjecture of men.
Tom Butler
New Member
God's immutability comes into play in this discussion.
God does not change. For God to know something means he has always known it. For God to choose someone means he has always chosen that person. For God to choose someone during that person's lifetime would mean that there was a time when he had not yet chosen that person--thus, would represent a change in God.
For him to not to foreknow someone, then at some point to foreknow him, would represent a change in God.
God's determinate plan (Acts 2:23) has always been his determinate plan, and there never was a time when he didn't have one.
Reply to Jbh28,
If and when you recant and admit my view does not use through sanctification and faith as an independent clause, as you charged, and therefore show some sign of a grasp of grammar, we can continue. Otherwise I have nothing to say.
What does the phrase for salvation do in the sentence? Does it provide the purpose of God's choice or something else?
What does from the beginning (or as first-fruits) do in the sentence? Does it provide the time of the choice or something else.
What does through sanctification by the Spirit do in the sentence? Does it provide the means used in the choice or something else.
What does through faith in the truth do in the sentence? Does it provide the means used as the basis of the choice or something else?
If I was going to rewrite the sentence per my understanding I would say
(1) God
(2) chose you
(3) from the beginning or as first fruits
(4) through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth
(5) for salvation.
The sanctification by the Spirit refers to the Holy Spirit placing us spiritually into Christ, and through faith in the truth refers to God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Bottom line, God is the only actor and those chosen are the receivers.
If and when you recant and admit my view does not use through sanctification and faith as an independent clause, as you charged, and therefore show some sign of a grasp of grammar, we can continue. Otherwise I have nothing to say.
What does the phrase for salvation do in the sentence? Does it provide the purpose of God's choice or something else?
What does from the beginning (or as first-fruits) do in the sentence? Does it provide the time of the choice or something else.
What does through sanctification by the Spirit do in the sentence? Does it provide the means used in the choice or something else.
What does through faith in the truth do in the sentence? Does it provide the means used as the basis of the choice or something else?
If I was going to rewrite the sentence per my understanding I would say
(1) God
(2) chose you
(3) from the beginning or as first fruits
(4) through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth
(5) for salvation.
The sanctification by the Spirit refers to the Holy Spirit placing us spiritually into Christ, and through faith in the truth refers to God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Bottom line, God is the only actor and those chosen are the receivers.
Reply to all
My views are based on my understanding of specific scriptures, not man made theories concerning the nature of God. God's word says He determined, and words have meaning. You can say He could not have determined because He always knew till the cows come home, you have no scripture to support your completely baseless conjecture. Scripture is my only source of authority, not the conjecture of men.
My views are based on my understanding of specific scriptures, not man made theories concerning the nature of God. God's word says He determined, and words have meaning. You can say He could not have determined because He always knew till the cows come home, you have no scripture to support your completely baseless conjecture. Scripture is my only source of authority, not the conjecture of men.
Jbh28 you are in error. "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" is an adverbial phrase because it describes HOW something occurred. Adverbs never modify nouns or pronouns, only adjectives describe nouns or pronouns. In 2 The 2:13 "chosen" is a verb, "salvation" is a noun (look it up in your concordance if you don't believe me), therefore, this adverbial phrase modifies the word chosen and not salvation. These are the proper rules of grammar.
Again, adverbs answer HOW, WHEN, OR WHERE and never modify nouns or pronouns. If you don't believe me, look it up in any rules of grammar book (which I did).
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I didn't say it for that phrase. I said you were saying that "for salvation" was an independent clause. I have a very good grasp(though not perfect) of grammar.
It's the object of the choice. What is being chosen.
It's an independent clause. It's an adverbial clause modifying "chosen."
the means of salvation. Sanctification is always in the context of salvation.
Again salvation. Through....is an adjective clause modifying its adjacent noun "salvation."
You would have a better point if it was worded that way.
Agreed!
Again, agreed.
so, now are you agreeing with me or did I misunderstand you? You seem to be understanding now that "sanctification by the Spirit" refers to salvation and faith in the truth as well.
Adverbs never modify nouns or pronouns, only adjectives describe nouns or pronouns. In 2 The 2:13 "chosen" is a verb, "salvation" is a noun (look it up in your concordance if you don't believe me), therefore, this adverbial phrase modifies the word chosen and not salvation. These are the proper rules of grammar.
Again, adverbs answer HOW, WHEN, OR WHERE and never modify nouns or pronouns. If you don't believe me, look it up in any rules of grammar book (which I did).[/QUOTE]
go look it up again. We are talking about a preposition which can be BOTH adverbial and adjective.
go look it up again. We are talking about a preposition which can be BOTH adverbial and adjective.[/QUOTE]
I did look it up, and "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" is an ADVERBIAL phrase because it answers HOW something occured. If you don't like that, take it up with the scholars. If a word tells HOW something happened, it is an adverb.
This is why I always believed this phrase was pointing to the word chosen, but I graduated High School 40 years ago and you begin to forget the rules. So I went to several online sites that show the rules of grammar and did some refreshing. They agreed with me and Van, and disagree with you. Look for yourself.
go look it up again. We are talking about a preposition which can be BOTH adverbial and adjective.[/QUOTE]
I did look it up, and a phrase or group of words that answers HOW something occured is an adverbial phrase and cannot modify a noun. And salvation in this verse is a noun. If you don't like this, take it up with the scholars who wrote the rules of grammar. You simply will not admit when you are in error.
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Reply to Winman
Thanks, I am not up to debating grammar with
someone who thinks I think "for salvation" is an independent clause in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. I think the only reason someone would deny the obvious, that through sanctification and faith is an adverbial clause modifying the verb is to support a presupposition. Each and every commentator that made that argument - through sanctification and faith modifies salvation - was a Calvinist.
Thanks, I am not up to debating grammar with
someone who thinks I think "for salvation" is an independent clause in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. I think the only reason someone would deny the obvious, that through sanctification and faith is an adverbial clause modifying the verb is to support a presupposition. Each and every commentator that made that argument - through sanctification and faith modifies salvation - was a Calvinist.
Exactly. And Calvinists thrive on ignorance. They try to portray themselves as intellectually and theologically superior to non-Cals. They are not used to folks who stand up to them and challenge them. It is actually quite easy to refute them with just a little study. Anybody who simply reads the Bible can see their doctrine is error. They don't study the scriptures, they study their "scholars" who write with a bias, not unlike several other groups.
By the way, this same rule of grammar also refutes their erroneous interpretation of Eph 2:8.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello Van,
Being that you really did not address my 1st post, it is my guess that you overlooked it.
1st allow me to repost what I asked you...
Please address your "pet" verse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
I offered several verses, one mistakenly, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13..........
Hello Van,
Good to meet you. I don't have much time this month to "play"...but I have read a few of your post. You seem to place a lot of weight in how you read 2 Thess 2:13. Really, its kinda hard to find many post where you don't bring this up. So I think its fair to say, this is your pet verse in the debate. I would like to go over it with you.
"at through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"1) what does sanctification mean?I want to offer one meaning because of time, and see if you agree.
2) Who does the sanctifying?
3) being that the greek primary preposition "en" (through) is used here as it relates to sanctification, what do you feel this is saying? In other words...election through sanctification....what does that mean?
Would you agree with this so far?
I understand the weight you place is on the next part, which I hope we can look at next.
***********************************
Now it is my guess you was replying to this...
I asked....WHEN DID HE OBTAIN KNOWLEDGE???
You said he OBTAINED IT. When??
Or another way to look at it...
WHEN DID HE NOT KNOW WHAT HE KNOWS NOW??????
All you have said is that God knew before he made. Again by you saying he OBTAINED KNOWLEDGE means he did not have something at some point so he had to OBTAIN IT.
1) When did he OBTAIN IT?
2) Who gave him that KNOWLEDGE that he didn't have?
Understand?
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Jarthur001
Active Member
Winman,
" through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"
1) what does sanctification mean?
2) Who does the sanctifying?
3) being that the greek primary preposition "en" (through) is used here as it relates to sanctification, what do you feel this is saying? In other words...election through sanctification....what does that mean?
2) Who does the sanctifying?
3) being that the greek primary preposition "en" (through) is used here as it relates to sanctification, what do you feel this is saying? In other words...election through sanctification....what does that mean?
You were the one that said you could take it out of the sentence and not change the meaning. That's what an independent clause is like. But if you are not saying that, then I didn't mean to say you did say that. But you can get over yourself and your cocky attitude you keep displaying. At least winman offered a reason why he thought it was an adverbial clause.
Of which winman, I'll be looking at what you posted in a bit.
I believe election is that decision God made before the foundation of the world to choose those who believed his gospel. Just as God had already determined to choose those men who lapped like dogs in Judges 7.
I believe we become elect or chosen through belief in the truth. That is man's part or duty. The sanctification through the Spirit is God's part. God's part comes FIRST.
You are so used to your way of thinking, I truly wonder sometimes if a Calvinist can even grasp how a non-Cal understands.
You see, I am no Pelagian, I do not believe any man could possibly be saved if God did not FIRST reveal himself and his Son through his word. This is that sanctification of the Spirit. Jesus said his words were spirit and life. He also said sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth. God's word convicts a man of his sin and lost state, but it also reveals the remedy which is faith or trust in Jesus who died for our sins.
So, for a man to be saved he must first hear the word of God. Hearing the word of God enables a man to believe (how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?).
So, election to me means that God determined to choose those who both hear his word (sanctification of the Spirit) and belief of the truth.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
This is another subject. If your not Pelagian you have changed your views on OS.
Wait...
I want to make sure I understand you here.
Are you saying God revealing himself is sanctification?
Let me repost...
The verse you have been quoting says this...
1) What does sanctification mean? ......Your saying "revealing himself is sanctification"????
2) Who does the sanctifying?..........Your answer...GOD
3) being that the greek primary preposition "en" (through) is used here as it relates to sanctification, what do you feel this is saying? In other words...election through sanctification....what does that mean?
Did you answer 3? If so, please give more detail.
Thanks...James
Maybe tomorrow, I need to get to bed, I get up very early.
I will say this though, the early church fathers before Augustine did not believe in OS. Study and see for yourself.
The difference between an adverb and and adjective is that an adverb modifies a verb or an adjective. and adjective modifies a noun or a pronoun. Usually, an adverb will answer questions like how, when, where.... Adjectives usually answer questions like which, what kind, how many. But the main difference isn't that(though that will end up being a difference), but what they modify.
Now, what kind of salvation is being spoken of here? It's salvation that is through sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth.
Now, as I think about this some, we could look at it another way. How has God chosen to save you? Not how did God choose us, but how has he chosen to save us? That is by "sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth."
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