Bible Study: God's Foreknowledge

[jbh28]

My bible reads "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.
Us is a group. Paul is telling individuals existing who are "in Christ" that one of the spiritual blessings we have is that He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

Us is a group, but it's individuals that get saved. Yes, only those in Christ can praise the Father for choosing them before the foundation of the world. If groups are the object, then we have a major problem because groups are not saved.

 

[jbh28]

John 15:19 says God chose us out of the world. Therefore our election for salvation occurred after we were in the world. And when we were in the world, we were chosen through belief in the truth.

no, our election was before the foundation of the world. You keep placing God(in time, and without any knowledge). And I already showed you that it NEVER says chosen though belief int he trough. What truth is God believing in? If you are going to place" belief in the truth" to God choosing, then what was he believing in. Why was he needing to be sanctified?

 

[jbh28]

Of course we weren't alive, but you know very well election is according to foreknowledge.

Now, if we are also chosen "in Christ" then this foreknowledge would HAVE to include God knowing of our faith in Christ would it not?

The only reason you cannot accept this is because you hold to Calvinism.

Thanks for nothing and stop lying. I don't accept it because the Bible NEVER says it. Saying I don't accept it because of Calvinism is a lie. But thanks for playing. you lose again.

 

[Winman]

Thanks for nothing and stop lying. I don't accept it because the Bible NEVER says it. Saying I don't accept it because of Calvinism is a lie. But thanks for playing. you lose again.

But the scriptures DO say it repeatedly, you have been shown many scriptures. Here is another:

Jam 2:5 Hearken my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world RICH IN FAITH, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

No matter, I think you could be shown a thousand verses, but will continue to hold to Calvinism.

 

[Robert Snow]

Thanks for nothing and stop lying. I don't accept it because the Bible NEVER says it. Saying I don't accept it because of Calvinism is a lie. But thanks for playing. you lose again.

It isn't a lie to point out the inconsistencies of Calvinism. To teach that God did not call men to repent, but that He chose us before time and then required all men to repent, which they cannot do is the lie. The bible does not support Calvinism in the least. It is only accomplished by twisting the scripture to make them say what they do not say. Just like the Jehovah's Witnesses do.

 

[jbh28]

But the scriptures DO say it repeatedly, you have been shown many scriptures. Here is another:

Jam 2:5 Hearken my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world RICH IN FAITH, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

No matter, I think you could be shown a thousand verses, but will continue to hold to Calvinism.

Did he say he chose "BECAUSE" they were rich in faith? Way to take a verse way out of context. I hold to Bible teaching. You have yet to show a verse that says that God chose BECAUSE we had faith in him.

 

[jbh28]

It isn't a lie to point out the inconsistencies of Calvinism.

I didn't say he lied by showing inconsistencies. He wasn't doing that. He was basically saying I get my theology from a system and not the Bible. I never say that. I don't believe you do that. I believe 100% that you get your theology from the Bible. We just disagree over interpretations. Childish acts like winman only show a lack of context to offer, or a lack of time to get it ready.

To teach that God did not call men to repent, but that He chose us before time and then required all men to repent, which they cannot do is the lie.

God does call all men to repent.(acts 17:30) He does choose us(Ephesians 1:4)

The bible does not support Calvinism in the least.

That's your opinion, but really, it's a matter of interpretation. I don't believe that Arminianism(or whatever in between) is taught in the Bible

It is only accomplished by twisting the scripture to make them say what they do not say. Just like the Jehovah's Witnesses do.

Now you have stooped low like winman. I haven't twisted any Scriptures. Please share with me what Scriptures I have twisted. And please, have a higher level of discussion than comparing fellow believers to cults.

 

[Robert Snow]

Now you have stooped low like winman. I haven't twisted any Scriptures. Please share with me what Scriptures I have twisted. And please, have a higher level of discussion than comparing fellow believers to cults.

The entire concept of Calvinism only works by twisting the scripture like the Jehovah's Witnesses, and all the other cults do. Now, I never said there is any likeness between this cult and the Calvinists, only that they use the same method to prove a point the bible does not teach. It isn't my fault that both mentioned theologies use the same method.

This isn't saying that they are equivalent in any other way. I do not view Calvinism as a cult, like I do the Jehovah's Witnesses. However, the Calvinists hand pick certain scriptures that deal with election and ignore God's call to man to repent and believe the Gospel. God would not tell man to repent and come to Christ for salvation while knowing that this was not possible. This makes God a liar, which He cannot be. Therefore, Calvinism is wrong, plain and simple.

 

[jbh28]

The entire concept of Calvinism only works by twisting the scripture like the Jehovah's Witnesses, and all the other cults do. Now, I never said there is any likeness between this cult and the Calvinists, only that they use the same method to prove a point the bible does not teach. It isn't my fault that both mentioned theologies use the same method.

This isn't saying that they are equivalent in any other way. I do not view Calvinism as a cult, like I do the Jehovah's Witnesses. However, the Calvinists hand pick certain scriptures that deal with election and ignore God's call to man to repent and believe the Gospel. God would not tell man to repent and come to Christ for salvation while knowing that this was not possible. This makes God a liar, which He cannot be. Therefore, Calvinism is wrong, plain and simple.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

God says for us to be holy, which is impossible.

However, the Calvinists hand pick certain scriptures that deal with election and ignore God's call to man to repent and believe the Gospel.

Not even close to true. This is the issue with hyper Calvinists. No true Calvinist would deny man's responsibility to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let's extend this discussion a bit further.

When a lost man stands before the Judgment will he claim that he couldn't believe, or will he admit that he would not?

Will any lost man say to the Lord, "Well, I wanted to believe, but I just couldn't."

Is there anybody on this board who was saved against his will?

 

[Robert Snow]

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The Father draws all who believe the Gospel.

God says for us to be holy, which is impossible.

Yes, we can be holy. God has made the way in the death and resurrection of His Son.

It is the Calvinists who has a problem here. In your view, God say for all men to be holy, yet He knows they cannot, only the Elect can be holy. For God to require that which He will not allow is deceptive.

Not even close to true. This is the issue with hyper Calvinists. No true Calvinist would deny man's responsibility to repent and believe the gospel.

The Calvinist says that God gives man the responsibility to repent and believe the Gospel, yet He only allows the chosen to do so. Again, this makes God deceptive.

 

[jbh28]

The Father draws all who believe the Gospel.

That's not what the passage says. The drawing comes before the coming.

Yes, we can be holy. God has made the way in the death and resurrection of His Son.

It is the Calvinists who has a problem here. In your view, God say for all men to be holy, yet He knows they cannot, only the Elect can be holy. For God to require that which He will not allow is deceptive.

How is that a problem only in my view. Do you not agree that no one on their own can be holy.

And are you holy? No, I'm sure you have sinned today. Are you holy or righteous in God's eyes. Yes, because of the righteousness of Christ. You, can't be holy.

The Calvinist says that God gives man the responsibility to repent and believe the Gospel, yet He only allows the chosen to do so. Again, this makes God deceptive.

Again, not true. "only allows the chosen to do so" is not an accurate statement. When you can stop using your straw men, you can start to have a discussion.

 

[jbh28]

Let's extend this discussion a bit further.

When a lost man stands before the Judgment will he claim that he couldn't believe, or will he admit that he would not?

He would not

Will any lost man say to the Lord, "Well, I wanted to believe, but I just couldn't."

Nope

Is there anybody on this board who was saved against his will?

Nope




Now I'll wait for our experts on Calvinism to come and tell me that I don't know what I believe.

 

[Robert Snow]

That's not what the passage says. The drawing comes before the coming.


How is that a problem only in my view. Do you not agree that no one on their own can be holy.

And are you holy? No, I'm sure you have sinned today. Are you holy or righteous in God's eyes. Yes, because of the righteousness of Christ. You, can't be holy.



Again, not true. "only allows the chosen to do so" is not an accurate statement. When you can stop using your straw men, you can start to have a discussion.

There really isn't anything to discuss. Calvinism is not scriptural. It doesn't matter if some in church history taught it hundreds or even thousands of years ago. It doesn't matter if the educated few teach it. It does not hold up to biblical scrutiny. And, to be honest, I am growing weary of wasting my time with people who reject the truth so as to appear spiritually elite. I have better things to do with my time than attempt to hand feed stubborn believers who cannot, or will not see the error of Calvinism, the truth of the Gospel.

If you are convinced Calvinism is the truth, nothing I or anyone else says can change that. Again, it's like the Jehovah's Witnesses. I've argued for months with these people and all we end up doing is going round and round in circles. The same it true with Calvinism.

 

[jbh28]

There really isn't anything to discuss. Calvinism is not scriptural. It doesn't matter if some in church history taught it hundreds or even thousands of years ago. It doesn't matter if the educated few teach it. It does not hold up to biblical scrutiny. And, to be honest, I am growing weary of wasting my time with people who reject the truth so as to appear spiritually elite. I have better things to do with my time than attempt to hand feed stubborn believers who cannot, or will not see the error of Calvinism, the truth of the Gospel.

If you are convinced Calvinism is the truth, nothing I or anyone else says can change that. Again, it's like the Jehovah's Witnesses. I've argued for months with these people and all we end up doing is going round and round in circles. The same it true with Calvinism.

Thanks for you unchristlike responses. I'll be happy to discuss Bible passages with you, but you seem more concerned with childlike statements. You keep wanting to compare your brothers and sisters in Christ to that of Jehovah Witnesses. We disagree over interpretation, not that I don't get my doctrine from the Bible. And you cannot even represent what we believe. You are like winman, you sit on a straw man and have nothing else. You twice on the previous page said something that isn't true. (man isn't allowed to repent and Calvinists denying that man is responsible to repent and believe). Neither are true with Calvinism, but you guys will probably still use your straw men.

And when have I ever tried to "appear spiritually elite" because I disagree with you. And this isn't about the gospel.

Again, if you want to discuses a Bible passage, please do so. Name the passage, and I'll be sure to discuss it. But this childish back and forth will not keep going on.

 

[Robert Snow]

Thanks for you unchristlike responses. I'll be happy to discuss Bible passages with you, but you seem more concerned with childlike statements. You keep wanting to compare your brothers and sisters in Christ to that of Jehovah Witnesses. We disagree over interpretation, not that I don't get my doctrine from the Bible. And you cannot even represent what we believe. You are like winman, you sit on a straw man and have nothing else. You twice on the previous page said something that isn't true. (man isn't allowed to repent and Calvinists denying that man is responsible to repent and believe). Neither are true with Calvinism, but you guys will probably still use your straw men.

And when have I ever tried to "appear spiritually elite" because I disagree with you. And this isn't about the gospel.

Again, if you want to discuses a Bible passage, please do so. Name the passage, and I'll be sure to discuss it. But this childish back and forth will not keep going on.

If you are unable to see the Jehovah's Witness reference for what it is, any discussion about biblical passages is futile. And like I said, after all is said and done, you will remain a Calvinist and I will remain a non-Calvinist. It's time for bed now.

 

[jbh28]

If you are unable to see the Jehovah's Witness reference for what it is, any discussion about biblical passages is futile. And like I said, after all is said and done, you will remain a Calvinist and I will remain a non-Calvinist. It's time for bed now.

You are still comparing Calvinist with cult groups. I know what you are attempting to do, but it still shouldn't be done. Discuss Scripture or don't discuss at all.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well I can certainly agree the key to understanding terms is to evaluate their meaning in context, including how the context answers the question concerning before knowledge. So no real difference here.

If we consider the possibility that "whom He foreknew" refers not to the corporate election of whoever trusts in Christ as the target group of God's redemption plan, then we could back the before to those who have been spiritually placed in Christ. These then would be specifically elected and intimately known by God.

Since the passage does not say whether the term is being used corporately, as in God's foreknowledge of the children of the promise or specifically, as in folks foreknowing Paul, I think my view is more consistent with the balance of scripture.

To assert that foreknew indicates an intimate relationship from before creation seems week to me as I have found no support in scripture.

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Your explanation ignores the plain teaching of the text.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree with you Van (welcome to BB).
I also see that Calvinists often ignore the phrase "in him" or "in Christ" which shows only a believer is chosen or elected. They will often redefine this to mean "TO BE in Christ".
Non- Cals believe themselves chosen because they believe, Calvinists redefine this to say we are chosen TO BE in Christ, something the scriptures never say.

looks like it says it several times,if you would only look.....

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Winman......look....scripture never says it,once again right here!

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[Iconoclast]

God foreknew those who would trust in His Son, and He predestinated them to be conformed to His Son's image. Simple!

He foreknew His elect...even when they were dead in sin eph2:1-4
but God.....