BIBLE STUDY: Theistic Evolution: Is This the Same God?

[Deacon]

Hi Bob, thanks for answering.

The initial charge by the author was that Theistic Evolutionists serve a different god. This radical and inflammatory YEC charge is perhaps true! I am saved by faith---my beliefs about creation are a byproduct of my search for understanding. If this pastor believes that a belief in YEC is required for salvation then he serves a different god than mine.

My views on the length of the Genesis day were posted a while back. [The Genesis Day http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=000192 ]
If the best you can do to convince us that the days of Genesis are 24 hours in length is point to the Genesis text and say, “there it is” then you have lost me and many others. I’m not “ignoring the point”; there are no YEC proofs in the New Testament, those in the OT are rather sparse and open to different interpretation. The verses mentioned in the article can only be read that way by interpreting them through the eyes of a YEC activist.

I’ve inserted myself into this debate because I am an old earth creationist, not a really a theistic creationist. The author of the original article did not differentiate the difference. As an OEC, I believe that God did create at various sundry times in the process of forming our world.

I’ll be truthful here Bob, at this point in my life trying to convince me that the Genesis days had to be 24 hours long would make me question the Bible, not science. While I’m no scientific genius I can follow the research that plainly and overwhelmingly indicates vast antiquity. Call me weak if you like, I’ll still respect you. My dilemma is that, like you, I believe in the inerrancy of the Scriptures. Somewhere along the way we’ll perhaps learn the truth and the shadows of doubt and uncertainty will fade.

You seem astounded that I would “admit” that God created all things. I’m not surprised. Whether you believe YEC or OEC though, the process of creation took many different forms. The idea that God may have used natural means to create and develop the heavens and the earth is not that surprising. Given God’s sovereignty over His creation what appears natural can also be classified as designed; If God designed nature to follow certain paths then He still produced it. The Theistic Creationist believes God designed and created a universe that continually sustains its ongoing operation, and He can still influence its events in ways that appear consistent with the usual operation of nature (that’s the “theistic” part of the label Theistic evolution, perhaps a better name would be Evolutionary Creationism).

Regarding Matthew 10:28-30, you responded,

You did not respond to "the point" the web link makes here. You charge that God employed a "creation method of carnage, extermination, starvation and death" to CREATE the "Heavens and the Earth and Sea and ALL that is in them".
The Bible on the other hand - obviously points to a bloodless, deathless, peaceful "creation" in 7 days - of Living systems "coming into being" in ONE "Evening and Morning"

You seem to have fallen into the thinking of many modern environmentalists when you express similar concerns about an animal’s death as you do a humans death. I believe there is a difference, (which IS expressed in Matthew 10) that man is different than the animals. Human death was introduced when Adam sinned. God knows about the falling of the sparrows, God values you. You’ve twisted this verse to serve a YEC doctrine. Note this: we read into the creation account much that we were taught as children. God didn’t create thorns and thistles after Adam sinned, they were already there. Thorns and thistles were not a problem for Adam and Eve in Eden before they were expelled (Gen. 2:18).
This also relates to the presence of pain in the garden of Eden. We learn a lot about our environment through pain. Imagine Adam taking his “monkey” bran out of the microwave and popping it into his mouth. Ouch! Adam won’t do that again. There was pain in the original creation, the curse in Genesis 3:16 states that the pain (of childbirth) would be multiplied, (zero multiplied by anything is still zero) . YEC doctrine is certainly adding a lot to scripture. I also missed the part in Genesis 3 where God curses the animals with death, it seems He cursed the ground (It must be my version).

Concerning my statements about Exodus 20, you posted this:

(Notice that Lev 23 does NOT state FOR IN 8 days you traversed the desert SO for 8 Days you shall observe the feast of Tabernacles. An equivalence you would "need" if trying to equate this to the LANGUAGE and LOGIC employed in Exodus 20:11)

It is interesting that you bring this up again. Leviticus also mentions the 7 days of the week:

‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings. ‘These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. Leviticus 23:3,4

No mention of why this is: Leviticus is consistent, it was written to proclaim God’s Law, not necessarily to provide commentary. So Leviticus neither proves nor disproves my interpretation. Look at it this way Bob, I’m interpreting the verse through the eyes of an OEC.

This is long enough, brother. Here is an interesting site by an OEC that may interest some of the others reading.

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/ovintro.htm#top

Rob

 

[john6:63]

Originally posted by Deacon:
point to the Genesis text and say, “there it is”

“And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”

There it is.

To me when the words evening and morning precedes the word day, naturally I see a 24-hr day, since I experience an evening and morning once every 24-hrs. Apparently you see a looooong day. It’s a matter of interpreting.

So when did you determine that these were long periods of time? When you were in Sunday school as a kid and read Genesis? Or in HS or college science courses and then re-read Genesis?

 

[BobRyan]

Deacon --
My views on the length of the Genesis day were posted a while back. [The Genesis Day http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=000192 ]
If the best you can do to convince us that the days of Genesis are 24 hours in length is point to the Genesis text and say, “there it is” then you have lost me and many others

You are not following the subject thread. The question is NOT "Is this the SAME SCIENCE that evolutionists use to tell stories about an OLD Earth". Rather it is a "look at God" and HIS WORD to see if the story that Evolutionism "tells" is the SAME story that we find in God's Word - the God of the bible - the God Christians serve.

I am simply pointing out that to SEE IF THAT is the case - we must be willing to exegete the text honestly.

You, on the other hand, are arguing that UNLESS we show the flaws in evolutionism's use of science - we don't know what God to serve - or how to exegete the Bible text - is just not true.

Exegesis existed long before Darwin. The practice is objective and reliable.

Christians (OE or YEC) should not run away from it.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Deacon --
I’ll be truthful here Bob, at this point in my life trying to convince me that the Genesis days had to be 24 hours long would make me question the Bible, not science. While I’m no scientific genius I can follow the research that plainly and overwhelmingly indicates vast antiquity. Call me weak if you like, I’ll still respect you. My dilemma is that, like you, I believe in the inerrancy of the Scriptures. Somewhere along the way we’ll perhaps learn the truth and the shadows of doubt and uncertainty will fade.

You can not "exegete the text out of Fear of evolutionism's USE of science".

No matter "what it might cost you" - you need to be honest with the text - exegete it correctly and honestly EVEN if it does not agree with the myths of evolutionism.

That is Step ONE.

Then the next step is as you say "to Observe" where the honest and faithful exegesis of the text SHOWS A GAP between what it is saying and the stories currently being told by evolutionism.

That is Step TWO.

Reading INTO the Bible text - whatever your local evolutionist "tells you to" is not exegesis - in the remotest sense.

Step THREE would be to carefully evaluate the use of SCIENCE that Evolutionism contrives and decide how much is really "hard science". Get past the myths and smoke screens of the stories in evolutionism and just deal with its "hard facts".

But compromising steps one and two - is not "key" to the solution. Let Steps one and two stand as they are - and let the chips fall where they may.

Bob

 

[Deacon]

Exegesis existed long before Darwin. The practice is objective and reliable.

It seems that this particular text (Genesis 1,2) has been examined ...long before Darwin...and was problematic even then.

Concerning your interpretational method. I could add a STEP 4.

Evaluate the result and return to the text for further examination---quite like the scientific method.

I see no Bible verse that asks me to separate myself from reality, in fact the Bible clearly is a book that applies to my everyday experences.

Rob

 

[Deacon]

So when did you determine that these were long periods of time? When you were in Sunday school as a kid and read Genesis? Or in HS or college science courses and then re-read Genesis?

I detect ridicule in your post. I didn't become a Christian until I was in H.S. It became a topic of discussion very soon after that.

My young daughters asked me why Adam didn't die on the "day" he disobeyed God. We are spiritualizing the text at this point and using non-literal meanings.

But the "when" is not really important. You may not become an OEC until you meet the Maker.

Rob

[ July 14, 2003, 05:54 AM: Message edited by: Deacon ]

 

[john6:63]

Originally posted by Deacon:
So when did you determine that these were long periods of time? When you were in Sunday school as a kid and read Genesis? Or in HS or college science courses and then re-read Genesis?

I detect ridicule in your post.

It’s a legitimate question. One I ask when I come across someone who believes in an old earth. If it wouldn’t trouble you too much, I’d still like to know.

My young daughters asked me why Adam didn't die on the "day" he disobeyed God. We are spiritualizing the text at this point and using non-literal meanings.

On that “day” Adam initiated the commencement of a process of physical dying, by disobeying God; which also involved spiritual death or a separation from God. Words as with day, may have more than one meaning, depending on the context in which it is used. For example:

Back in my grandfather’s day, it took 2 days to drive across the countryside of France during the day. The first occurrence of “day” means, “time” in a general sense. The second “day” where a number is used, refers to an ordinary day, and the last “day” refers to the daylight period of the 24-hr period.

You may not become an OEC until you meet the Maker.

That’s what it will take for me to be convinced. I’ve put my faith and trust in my Makers word, in which He cannot lie. But I feel confident that my Maker will not hold me accountable for not believing in man’s fallible methods, which are based on unproved assumptions to determine the age of the earth. When the age of the earth can be determined within His word in Genesis.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Peter101:
>>>>>>>>>>Why not actually speak to the "details"? PICK and example (Colossians 1, John 1, Rev 14, Exodus 20:11........etc) and DEAL with it.<<<<<<<

I am not into theology, thank you very much.

You are a Baptist who is into evolution but not theology?

Charles Ryrie said that everyone is a theologian... good or bad, educated or ignorant. We all define God by some means.

 

[Deacon]

Sorry if I jumped on you to quickly John6:63. I’ve been expressing myself openly and don’t appreciate the rather acrid tone found in many of the posts on other threads down here. I was too quick to judge.

I became a Christian late in my freshman year of H.S. I was exposed to many different forms of Christianity very early on in my Christian life. This exposure caused me to study a wide range of doctrines and to make decisions about those doctrines that many 'family raised Christians youth' do not do. Certainly by late in my high school years I was decisively in the OEC camp. The most influential book I read on the topic back then is still my favorite, Bernard Ramm’s The Christian View of Science and Scripture, 1954 (It’s out of print but still a classic! Morris and Whitcomb’s The Genesis Flood was written in response to Ramm’s book). Surprising as it may seem, I frequently use the story of Adam and his sin when I witness to unbelievers.

God speaks to us in His creation too. Does God lie to us in His general revelation? We interpret the data found in the world around us: We also interpret the data found in the pages of His Word. I merely expect them to agree. Like you I’ve put my faith and trust in my Maker’s Word, both written and revealed in His creation.

As an OEC I sometimes feel that YEC’s are missing out on the wonder of God’s glory. God gave us the natural world as a testimony of His divine nature. Looking at the vast age of the universe aids me in appreciating His unchanging eternal power. Seeing and studying the intricate interactions of His creation gives me great pleasure. I have sympathy for some YEC’s that look on God’s wonders and close their eyes and say it’s all a lie. I can appreciate the work of some YEC’s scientists for their dogged tenacity in attempting to prove the youthfulness of the universe but wonder if in their unguarded moments ever they question their conclusions.

Rob

 

[BobRyan]

Rob,
I see no Bible verse that asks me to separate myself from reality

Agreed. God "SAID" that "IN SIX days the LORD CREATED the heavens and the earth and the sea and ALL that is in them and rested the Seventh DAY" - and that is what "REALLY" happened.

As it turns out God "really" is right and the mythologies of evolutionism "really" are wrong.

So Faith - Christian faith, the Christian Gospel does NOT insist that you ignore reality it asks that you "accept it" JUST as God stated it.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Deacon --
Surprising as it may seem, I frequently use the story of Adam and his sin when I witness to unbelievers.

But if you "really believe" that Adam was squatting on his cave floor bashing in his daily ration of monkey brains as mommy hominid looked on in "approval" when "suddenly" he had a "bad" thought and all mankind had to go to hell - or else God's Son had to die to save them, how could you REMAIN a Christian? Better yet - how in the world could you "sell such a gospel" to those to whom you witness??

That is far more amazing than any of the mythologies of evolutionism itself. Even Richard Dawkins finds that "incredible".

And so do I.

Bob

 

[JamesJ]

Better yet - how in the world could you "sell such a gospel" to those to whom you witness??

Superior question Bob. No wonder there's a great falling away from the faith. The world sees that the church has bought into evolution too.

"But they have this God and hell thing too. Don't want that... And salvation... from what? Think I won't listen to them... They got evolution right, but they're wrong about God..."

Thanks a lot.

 

[Deacon]

Well, the creation of man is one point where an OEC may differ from a Theistic Creationist. I can't say I know enough about anthropology or early man to make much more than an "un"educated guess.

When I present the story in my witness, I do it much like the Bible. The facts man, just the facts.

As for selling the gospel, all I have to do is present the gospel, the Holy Spirit does all the selling for me.

Rob