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I see that they will cease! But what scriptures teach me is when they will cease...
When that which is perfect comes....
I will know as I am known.....
I will see face to face...
This will not happen until we see Jesus face to face then we will know as we are known. (Phil. 3:12; 1 John 3:2)
So you do not believe that the Holy Spirit will show things to come?believe that passage is the main "proof text" used...
I personally don't have a problem with tongues so much as the other bagge of they see Modern day Apsotle/Prophets, and the gifts of healings/miracles etc as Apostles were gifted with!
Also had BIG problem with some seeing additional fuller revealtion still coming forth from God today!
Think those of us holding to 'ceasing: mainly refer to those Apostles/prophets offices, and gifts that are revelations from god for today!
have to deind
So you do not believe that the Holy Spirit will show things to come?
I am not saying writing another chapter in the Bible!
I am talking on a personal level..we have a personal relationship with God!
Isn't the title of an apostle "one sent?" Doesn't God send people today to start new churches etc.? I do not find the word missionary in the Bible, do you?
What is the Biblical argument for complete cessation of sign gifts?
"as for tongues, they will cease;."
Is this pretty much it? Or is there more? Or is it based also on 1900 years of observation more than biblical proof?
I do not believe that there are any biblical arguments for a current cessationism.
Would say that the sign gifts as revelation from God ceased, as did the offices of NT Apostles/prophets, but tnaht the Sprit can still move/guide/direct us, prompting us today, but ALWAYS in agreement with the Bible!
I do not think the Holy Spirit will say anything that contradicts the Bible! And Jesus already said it was the Father to know the time and hour!The Holy Spirit speaks thru the Bible to us today, and he will indeed bring us illumination on its meaning, as long as we apply sound ways to study it, and agree to apply it!
He does not give us the date/timing of the second coming, nor visions on who to marry etc!
Apostle can refer to modern missionaries, but problem is those in Charasmatic circles hold it to mean SAME as NT Apsotles, thus their 'revelation" knowledge and teachings!
So what is your definition on the common practice of tongues?That may be but no where in scripture is there a declaration of a current cessationsism. But do not let my position on that confuse anyone about my stance on tongues. The common practice of tongues is not biblical and an abomination. It is fake, ungodly and everyone who practices it knows it.
So what is your definition on the common practice of tongues?
I will agree jibberish is not biblical. But if someone speaks in a language that he does not know and it is interpreted with a powerful message/praise that brings God glory, how is that heresy?It is not some gobbly gook jibberish no one understands. By the way when we speak jibberish and someone claims to interpret they are lying. That behavior in the church is heresy.
Can you show me in scripture this is the purpose of this manifestation of the Holy Spirit?Tongues, as given as a supernatural gift by the HG, is for the single purpose of sharing the gospel in situations that God deems necessary and to show he is involved in a large way.
Again, can you show me an example of this in scriptures?If someone comes to me and says I met a Chinamen and I shared the gospel with him and he was saved even though neither of us speak one anothers language, then I would say that is tongues.
Can't say what other churches are doing or how they are moving in the manifestations of the Spirit. As a matter of fact tongues is the least manifestation we see in our church...but when it is..it is very powerful. Several times after it happens and interpretation is given...someone is moved to respond to what God is trying to do in their lives.This garbage that goes on in churches is only about feeding the emotional flesh and should be repudiated at every turn. To pretend you are worshiping God in this way is an abomination in worship and everyone who conducts themselves in this manner needs to repent.
I will agree jibberish is not biblical. But if someone speaks in a language that he does not know and it is interpreted with a powerful message/praise that brings God glory, how is that heresy?
Can you show me in scripture this is the purpose of this manifestation of the Holy Spirit?
Can't say what other churches are doing or how they are moving in the manifestations of the Spirit. As a matter of fact tongues is the least manifestation we see in our church...but when it is..it is very powerful. Several times after it happens and interpretation is given...someone is moved to respond to what God is trying to do in their lives.
The gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12 are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. They are only given to saved people.It is not so long as it is a known language on this earth and is for the purpose of making the gospel known to someone who needs it.
I Cor 14:22
uh huh
"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord." (Ephesians 2:19-21)
So you are saying that God's "building" (the Church) was built on the foundation of the apostles, so therefore the apostles must have been given certain spiritual gifts in order to help found the Church?
Are you also saying that these gifts of the Spirit were part of the foundation for establishing and building the Church, and therefore they were temporary (which is not a very strong argument when you consider that the foundation which your house sits on was not temporary, it is still there).
This line of argument misses Paul's point and goes beyond what the above passage actually says. Paul's point was simply that we are members of God's "building," and that the apostles (and the prophets) laid the foundation for this "building." Notice that Paul used the same imagery in 1 Corinthians 3:9-11, where he specifically said that the foundation has nothing to do with his gifts as an apostle, but instead the foundation is Jesus Christ:
"For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:9-11)
Jesus is the true foundation, so if we use your argument then we must conclude that Jesus and His gifts (salvation, eternal life, the Holy Spirit, forgiveness of sins, redemption, etc.) were purely "foundational" and therefore ended when the New Testament was completed. Obviously this is the wrong conclusion to make. The argument that the apostles' spiritual gifts were purely foundational (and therefore temporary) is not Scriptural.
What of the 9 listed in 1 Cor. 12 do you believe have ceased?Sorry Awaken, but this post misses the mark. First rather than state my position, "sign and wonder gifts were for the purpose of authenticating Christ, the Apostles and the New Testament," you say the gifts were for the purpose of founding the church. Wide of the mark, sir, wide of the mark.
Next, I did not say or suggest the foundation was temporary, but that once laid, it did not need to be laid again with more authentication. Therefore, your arguments appear to be strawman, rather than an effort to understand my view.
1 Corinthians 3:9-11 does not mention of the sign and wonder gifts of Paul, but it does say he laid the foundation of God's building, which is Christ Jesus. And therefore, that work needed the authentication of the sign and wonder gifts. The passage goes on, i.e. verses 12-15 to teach we all now must build on the foundation of Christ with work that passes the test of fire to earn rewards.
In summary, I have posted the verses that I believe support my view that the sign and wonder gifts have ceased, and I see no need to address strawman arguments.
What of the 9 listed in 1 Cor. 12 do you believe have ceased?
The gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12 are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. They are only given to saved people.
Can you explain how that in Acts 19 it was a sign to the unbeliever? Or in Acts 10...What unbelievers were present when they began to speak in tongues?
I explained this in another thread..but will repost it again...
It turns out that "uninterpreted tongues" have been used in Israel's history as a sign to the unbelieving Israelites that God's judgment had come upon them. Paul was quoting a prophecy from Isaiah 28:11-12:
"Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"-- but they would not listen." (Isaiah 28:11-12)
This prophecy was fulfilled when the Assyrian army swooped down upon Israel speaking a foreign language (an uninterpreted tongue), carrying Israel off into captivity. Paul used an example from Israel's history to show that uninterpreted tongues are sometimes used as a "sign" for unbelievers that judgment has come upon them.
Then Paul pointed out that if an unbeliever enters a church where Christians seem to have lost their minds, the unbeliever wouldn't see this as a sign of impending judgment. This is why Paul said that prophecy is much more beneficial during a church service.
So you are saying healing, tongues and prophecy has ceased, but not the other 6 listed?Was Paul an apostle? I believe he was. The folks he taught thought he was. So what did he do to authenticate that he was indeed an apostle?
In John 4:48 we see that healing was a sign of Jesus being the Christ.
Tongues, meaning speaking in another known language without training. 1 Corinthians 14:21-22
Prophecy, meaning speaking the inspired word of God, i.e. adding to the Bible. John 14:26 suggests that those who had been directly taught by Jesus would "remember" (write the NT) all that He had taught. No need to add to that.
Where did I mention He was at our beck and call?We do not just get to decide when this gift will come on us. God is nto at our beck and call in this manner.