Biblical Assertion

[Van]

There is no "faith providing access" statement anywhere found.

Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Why not stick to what scripture teaches.

Next you deny it is our faith. Again Romans 4:5 clearly says it is our faith that is credited as righteousness.

Folks, note the pattern of denial of scriptural truth, but scripture teaches God sets before us the "choice of life or death." The ability to make that choice and choose life is the limited spiritual ability fallen people possess.

I agree, there is no need for you to say you disagree with limited spiritual ability. Scripture teaches it is true.

 

[agedman]

Why not stick to what scripture teaches.

Next you deny it is our faith. Again Romans 4:5 clearly says it is our faith that is credited as righteousness.

Folks, note the pattern of denial of scriptural truth, but scripture teaches God sets before us the "choice of life or death." The ability to make that choice and choose life is the limited spiritual ability fallen people possess.

I agree, there is no need for you to say you disagree with limited spiritual ability. Scripture teaches it is true.

Van,

WHEN did Abram have "spiritual ability?"

Before God spoke to him or after?

Where was Abram when God spoke to him?

When was Abram's first alter made to the Lord?

Abram was 75 years old when God spoke to him.

According to your thinking, Abram had "spiritual ability" for 75 years and it took God awhile to figure out how to speak, or perhaps God was playing around with the stars and wasn't paying attention to the passage of time.

OR, perhaps Abram was being prepared to hear from God (made into good soil) for the purpose God (farmer) desired. That way when God spoke, Abram would have the capacity to listen, the understanding of the needs to take a journey, well prepared for the journey, and capable of taking and understanding directions.

Selecting a verse about Abraham from Romans and extending it over all humankind does not make your argument valid; rather, attempting to do so misuses the intent of both the testimony of Abram and of the statements of Romans.

Van, you will have to search elsewhere in Scriptures to find innate "spiritual ability."

 

[Van]

Please address what scripture says!! Romans 5:2 says our faith provides our access into the grace in which we stand. Romans 4:5 makes it clear we are talking about our faith which God credits as righteousness. And this applies to everyone, not just Abraham, see Romans 4:24.

The ability to choose life benefits no one until the choice is set before us. And even when it is, many do not choose life wholeheartedly.

"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."

The biblical assertion is true and has once again been demonstrated by scripture after scripture.

Final point, Paul spoke to babes in Christ as MEN OF FLESH. Thus, men of flesh can receive spiritual milk. QED

 

[agedman]

Please address what scripture says!! Romans 5:2 says our faith provides our access into the grace in which we stand. Romans 4:5 makes it clear we are talking about our faith which God credits as righteousness. And this applies to everyone, not just Abraham, see Romans 4:24.

The ability to choose life benefits no one until the choice is set before us. And even when it is, many do not choose life wholeheartedly.

"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."

The biblical assertion is true and has once again been demonstrated by scripture after scripture.

Final point, Paul spoke to babes in Christ as MEN OF FLESH. Thus, men of flesh can receive spiritual milk. QED

Ok, I think I am done with the discussion, because:

Romans 4: and I showed how you did not apply consistency with the life of Abraham .

Romans 5: and I showed you did not use consistency in that passage.

Matthew, Ephesians, Corinthians, you are not following the Scripture principles presented.

Grasping at a statement made by men, and not only removing the statement from accountability to the Scriptures, but placing the statement as a determiner of how to interpret Scriptures is just not good.

Personally, I think that unless the statement is taken from the standpoint that the natural state of man is without any redeeming value, the statement is read with error. This is why I disagree with the statement, because it is most likely folks, of the view you would seem to agree, do want to place the statement as some authority. But it is not.

The writers of Scriptures disagree with taking the statement with that view, and I dare say the writers of the statement would also disagree with taking what they wrote in that manner.

For those reading the thread, I would make the following declaration:

There is NO freedom of the will except that found in the believer. The heathen make choices constrained by the heathen will, and although those choices may seem good, the Scriptures state, "The desire of the wicked will perish."

The New Birth includes a new will. Not the old renewed.

Do not embrace the writings of others as presenting the truth, unless the Scriptures support that truth.

 

[Van]

I think Agedman, you were done before you started.

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. No need to deny scripture.

You said God crediting Abraham's faith could not be applied to the rest of mankind, but I showed you Romans 4:24 which does it.

Nothing in our fallen lives is of "redeeming value." No one said otherwise. Please address my position.

The authority of the Biblical Assertion is its validity in light of supporting scripture.

Folks, God sets before fallen people the choice of life or death, and if we choose life, He will credit our faith as righteousness, and transfer us into the kingdom of His Son.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

First of all, we need to correct the appalling misuse by Van of the Baptist 1689 Confession. Here is the whole of Chapter IX.

9. Free Will

1. God has indued the will of man, by nature, with liberty and the power to choose and to act upon his choice. This free will is neither forced, nor destined by any necessity of nature to do good or evil.
   
   
2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but he was unstable, so that he might fall from this condition.
   
   
3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of will to perform any of the spiritual good which accompanies salvation. As a natural man, he is altogether averse to spiritual good, and dead in sin. He is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself for conversion.
   
   
4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into a state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage to sin, and by grace alone He enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good. But because of his remaining corruptions he does not only (or perfectly) will that which is good, but also wills that which is evil.
   
   
5. The will of man will only be made perfectly and immutably free to will good alone in the state of glory.

To take Article 1 in isolation from 2-5 is thoroughly dishonest and you should be ashamed of yourself, Van. Now, do you accept the Chapter as a whole? Yes or no?

Folks, God sets before fallen people the choice of life or death, and if we choose life, He will credit our faith as righteousness, and transfer us into the kingdom of His Son.

This is fine as far as it goes, but unfortunately it doesn't go very far.

Romans 3:10-12. 'As it is written,
"There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one."'

Now we all know that Van is going to say that 'none' really means 'quite a few.' I do hope that the 'folks' he keeps appealing to will understand that words have meaning and that 'none' means 'none' and that 'dead' means 'dead.' Unsaved people will not choose the way of life because they have sinful, unbelieving hearts, "And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). Unless the Holy Spirit gives them new birth, people simply will not 'choose life.'

Do children in America still read Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson? Those who have read it will know that Long John Silver's parrot, Cap'n Flint, used constantly to squawk, "Dead men don't bite!" Even a parrot knows more than Van. Dead men do indeed not bite. They don't do anything at all. They're dead, you see. Spiritually dead people don't do anything spiritual. They don't repent; they don't believe, they don't come to Christ. They're dead, you see. They need to be born again.

 

[Van]

First Martin starts with a personal attack, signaling a lack of biblical support.
Next, he claims something in the rest of chapter 9 conflicts with the biblical assertion. But that is false.
Fallen people are not by their own strength to convert themselves or to prepare themselves for conversion.

So the actual claim is that fallen people have lost all ability of will to perform any spiritual good. And this statement remains true! All the works of righteousness performed by fallen people are as filthy rags to God. What Martin does is read into this statement, something not there, i.e the idea that fallen people cannot seek God some of the time, and cannot wholeheartedly trust in Christ ever. But that is not what it says! God takes our "filthy rag" faith and credits it as righteousness.

Next, Martin returns to a personal attack, again signalling a lack of biblical support.

Then Martin posts Romans 3:10-11 which I have addressed dozens of times. The passage says no one seeks after God, but leaves to interpretation whether this is all of the time, when they are sinning, or at any time. They claim at any time but when you consider the passage contextually, proving we are all under sin, the actual idea is "all of the time, or when we are sinning" therefore we are all under sin.

Anyone, folks, who reads the bible knows that spiritually dead men were entering heaven (Matthew 23:13) so to define "spiritual deadness" as total spiritual inability is unbiblical.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So the actual claim is that fallen people have lost all ability of will to perform any spiritual good. And this statement remains true! All the works of righteousness performed by fallen people are as filthy rags to God. What Martin does is read into this statement, something not there, i.e the idea that fallen people cannot seek God some of the time, and cannot wholeheartedly trust in Christ ever. But that is not what it says! God takes our "filthy rag" faith and credits it as righteousness.

First of all, where does the Bible describe our faith as a 'filthy rag'? That is your invention. Faith is 'more precious than gold' (1 Peter 1:7), for it is the gift of God. 'Every good and precious gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights' (James 1:17).

Second, just read through what the Confession says again. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of will to perform any of the spiritual good which accompanies salvation. As a natural man, he is altogether averse to spiritual good, and dead in sin. He is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself for conversion. Part of the 'spiritual good that accompanies salvation' is faith. There is nothing we can do in any way to make ourselves acceptable to God, and that includes believing in Christ. Unconverted people just won't believe (John 10:26). Faith is the gift of God (Acts 13:48; Eph. 2:8).

Anyone, folks, who reads the bible knows that spiritually dead men were entering heaven (Matthew 23:13)

This is a nonsense, and it's been explained to you more than once. Dead means dead. If someone tells you that someone you know has died, you might ask a lot of questions, but you won't ask, "Well, how dead is he? Can he still walk and talk?"

 

[Van]

Martin you can nit pick till the cows come home, but all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God. Thus our faith is a filthy rag to God.

No verse says our faith is instilled by irresistible grace, that is your fiction. God credits our faith as righteousness or not.

People to not "perform any of the spiritual good which accompanies salvation." No one said we do!!

Finally we have the ultimate fiction, saying fallen men were not entering heaven, in direct denial of Matthew 23:13.

In summary, the Biblical Assertion has once again been shown using scripture to be valid, and the alternate view (total spiritual inability) has been shown once again to be mistaken.

BTW, I see Martin once again falsely claims the gift in view at Ephesians 2:8 is faith. That is a material false statement. Salvation is the gift in view. The fact is nothing in scripture actually supports the mistaken view of total spiritual inability.

 

[agedman]

Spiritual inability is found in such passages as:
Romans 8:

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.​

The writer of Romans does not give room for any such thinking as spiritual ability being found innate in the unregenerate.

There is no "spiritual ability" in one who is:

• Hostile toward God.
• Not subject to the law of God.
• Not able to be subject to the law of God.
• Cannot please God.

Only the believer is capable of walking "after (according to) the Spirit" and not "after (according to) the flesh" (Romans 8:1-4)

 

[Van]

As I have shown many times before, there are no verses or passages, when contextually considered, that support the mistaken doctrine of total spiritual inability. In this thread a number of supposed support verses have been referenced, and each has been shown not to actually support the doctrine. Now Agedman and posted yet another. But if you just read it, it does not support his premise.

Here, Romans 8:5-8, scripture teaches that with our minds set on fleshly desires, we are not able to subject ourselves to the law of God. And no one said we could. But can fallen people set there minds on godly things? Yes. Matthew 13 has fallen people receiving the gospel with joy.

 

[agedman]

As I have shown many times before, there are no verses or passages, when contextually considered, that support the mistaken doctrine of total spiritual inability. In this thread a number of supposed support verses have been referenced, and each has been shown not to actually support the doctrine. Now Agedman and posted yet another. But if you just read it, it does not support his premise.

Here, Romans 8:5-8, scripture teaches that with our minds set on fleshly desires, we are not able to subject ourselves to the law of God. And no one said we could. But can fallen people set there minds on godly things? Yes. Matthew 13 has fallen people receiving the gospel with joy.

Van,

1) The clarification of Romans 8 is found in Romans 7.
That you do not agree that the flesh is:

1) Hostile to God.
2) Not subject to the law of God.
3) not ABLE to be subject to the law of God.
4) Cannot please God.​

in no manner makes the flesh agreeable to be spiritually viable.

2) Fallen people are "of the flesh" for there is NO spirit of God that abides in them. Such thinking that their is some innate ability found in the unregenerate heathen is not supported ANYWHERE in Scriptures.

I must say that I admire those who persist and are sincere, even when the persistence and sincerity is rooted in error, at least such character is not as one who has no rudder and chases and blown about with every wind.

 

[Van]

Agedman, you are wasting electrons. The issue is whether a fallen person can set their mind on godly things. Please try and keep up.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The issue is whether a fallen person can set their mind on godly things.

Indeed it is.
That is why 1 Cor. 2:12-14 is so valuable. It explains the situation so clearly and concisely.

 

[Van]

Folks we have already addressed 1 Corinthians 2:14, which teaches unless you are indwelt you cannot understand spiritual meat. But men of flesh can understand spiritual milk, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3. Just read it.

Matthew 13 teaches men of flesh can set their minds on spiritual milk, for some received the gospel with joy.

To repeat, no verse or passage teaches total spiritual inability of all people all of the time. Thus the Biblical Assertion of the OP stands as validated, the fallen can seek God and trust in Christ.

 

[Rippon]

Folks we have already addressed 1 Corinthians 2:14, which teaches unless you are indwelt you cannot understand spiritual meat.

It does not say that. It says that one cannot accept the things that come from the Spirit. This person cannot understand them at all. It doesn't say meat or milk. This person has no capacity whatsoever for anything of the Spirit.

But men of flesh can understand spiritual milk, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3. Just read it.

You are wrong --but you already know that. You're just having some fun.
You know that 2:15 and 16 deal with a believer whereas verse 14 concerns the unsaved.
You know that 3:1-3 deals with believers, yet "mere infants in Christ."

You need a heaping dose of discernment Van.

 

[agedman]

To repeat, no verse or passage teaches total spiritual inability of all people all of the time. Thus the Biblical Assertion of the OP stands as validated, the fallen can seek God and trust in Christ.

This should be read that "Van considers no verse or passage teaches total spiritual inability of anyone. Van holds that the Bible doesn't teach spiritual inability and so the OP is valid."

That Van doesn't read the same Scriptures with the same thinking as others makes Van, Van.

However, that doesn't compel others to become Van or to think like Van.

It is good to think, and to reflect upon the Scriptures and how they apply and what use they have to life and living.

It is also good to have Van as an example of persistence and sincerity.

 

[Van]

LOL Agedman, why use personal attacks, which you know are fallacies.

1) 1 Corinthians 2:14 does not say "all the things of the Spirit" but the passage indicates the fallen cannot understand some of the things of the Spirit, spiritual meat. Note Paul did present spiritual milk as to men of flesh.

2) I read the Biblical Assertion just as others do, and it proclaims the proper understanding of scripture. God sets before us the choice of life or death, not life only for some, and death only for the rest.

3) To repeat, no verse or passage teaches total spiritual inability of all people all of the time. Thus the Biblical Assertion of the OP stands as validated, the fallen can seek God and trust in Christ.

 

[agedman]

LOL Agedman, why use personal attacks, which you know are fallacies.

What personal attack, Van.

I was pointing to your uniqueness. I was not attacking that uniqueness, but rather acknowledging you are not "cookie cutter" just as I am not considered "cookie cutter."

1) 1 Corinthians 2:14 does not say "all the things of the Spirit" but the passage indicates the fallen cannot understand some of the things of the Spirit, spiritual meat. Note Paul did present spiritual milk as to men of flesh.

Van you might have traction if the context was as you desired, but that just isn't the context:

"10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?"​

At this point, the writer is commenting about men in general, not just the saved in particular, but what is characteristic of all men. As the ancient writing found in the temple of Apollos would say, "Know yourself." The spirit of man knows the thoughts of which he ruminates, and more often a concerted effort to cover and excuse the thoughts is undertaken.

Then the writer is comparing the awareness of the internal thoughts to the thoughts of God.

"Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God"
​

This is important, because it speaks directly to the issue of spiritual ability. If the Spirit of God is the only one who knows the thoughts (mind) of God, then there is no ability innate in a person to know that mind much less be obedient.

Then the writer states:

"12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ."
​

The context shows ability and mind set of the natural man in comparison to one who has been given ability by the Spirit of God.

It follows then that in the natural man, there is no ability, only a consideration that the things of God are foolishness and not comprehendable.

2) I read the Biblical Assertion just as others do, and it proclaims the proper understanding of scripture. God sets before us the choice of life or death, not life only for some, and death only for the rest.

It is true that folks will read what they desire to read "into" the Scriptures. One may find a Biblical assertion where other do not. That happens (imo) more often in working with the Psalms, for there is numerous times the Psalm may be about two or more items at the same time.

No doubt God "sets before all men the choice of life or death." That is not which I would consider a matter of debate.

What IS debatable is in what manner that choice is presented and in what estate the results of the choice reside.

Because the Scriptures teach (as shown above) that the Spirit of God must be involved for any human to comprehend the mind of God and not consider the things of God as foolish, then it follows that those who do not have the Spirit of God are barred from comprehension and acknowledgement of validity concerning the things of God.

Many are those who choose death, embrace death, mock life, and shun life, even work against light and life. That is consistent with the statements found in John. There is no innate ability given, for they have turned from be given that ability (John 1). Only those who do not turn from the light are given the authority to become... It is not innate in every person, and such thinking is directly in violation of John's teaching.

3) To repeat, no verse or passage teaches total spiritual inability of all people all of the time. Thus the Biblical Assertion of the OP stands as validated, the fallen can seek God and trust in Christ.

If I parse out the above statement it is correct in that God always has those who are His in every age or time block. However, such a statement is not giving traction or truth to the thinking of innate spiritual ability.

There is no Scripture that presents the fallen can of their own innate ability "seek God and trust in Christ."

Rather, there are specific and direct Scriptures against such a statement that presents any such ability innate in humankind.

Such Scriptures as is found in Romans 3:

10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”​

 

[Van]

The Biblical Assertion, people can seek God and trust in Christ, has been validated, and the alternate view, total spiritual inability, has been shown to have no actual support in scripture.
1)1 Cor. 2:14 does not say fallen people cannot receive all the things of the Spirit, but Matthew 13 does say 3 of the 4 (fallen) soils can receive some of the things of the Spirit.

2) "If the Spirit of God is the only one who knows the thoughts (mind) of God, then there is no ability innate in a person to know that mind much less be obedient." This assertion is wrong, if the Spirit reveals God (say by inspiring the New Testament) then some those thoughts of God (spiritual milk) can be known by those not indwelt.

3) Again, fallen people do seek God and put their trust in Christ, Matthew 13, Matthew 23:13. To simply say "taint so" is without merit.

4) "it follows that those who do not have the Spirit of God are barred from comprehension and acknowledgement of validity concerning the things of God." No it does not. Matthew 13 teaches that Jesus had to speak in parables to "prevent" those not yet indwelt from understanding. The complete opposite of Agedman's mistaken assertion.

5) No where does John teach all fallen people cannot seek God or trust in Christ at any time. The opposite is in fact taught, "everyone believing into Him shall not perish...."

6) Why return to Romans 3, for there is none who do good, not even one." The fact that we have all fallen short of the glory of God is not in dispute. That, in our fallen state, all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags. The fallen are all under sin, and headed for Hades/Gehenna. But in that state, people seek God and trust in Christ, Matthew 13, Matthew 23:13.