Thanks a lot Jon and Agedman for your contributions to these threads....Obviously, they were no doubt tiring to engage in at times, but I have found them illuminating and you guys have brought up serious Biblical points worthy of meaningful consideration. And, as always, I am only 1 of a thousand who think this way, but, I wanted you guys to know that most who read.....don't comment. I have read you guys talking about this for nearly a year (at least several months) and have commented zilch.
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Biblical Atonement (Part 4....but who's counting)
- Thread starter JonC
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By the same token, what need is there for an offering?
That is the wrong question. There is not, per Scripture, someone from whom we were purchased. The "elephant in the room" is you find this insufficient.
The irony is you believe God purchased us from God.
We were bought with a price - the blood of Christ. The price Christ paid for us is Himself. And you ask "who did He pay?"!!!!
That is so far from the point the question is bewildering. I have friends I served with who paid the ultimate price. I couldn't imagine somebody walking up and asking "who did they pay?".
Our freedom as a nation had a price. You wonder who got paid????
Go back to Scripture without your theory and you will not be asking that question.
To purify sacred space??????????
But, I'm sure Calvin never mentioned it so........
Thank you for the encouragement. All I want is for some, I figure those who don't participate or participate much, to consider the issue and take a serious look at the text of Scripture.
You see? Such glaring ignorance is how you've been turned aside.
They do.....
I'm hardly claiming to be a convert at this point, but, I'm sure the abuse I will receive for merely considering your arguments and suggesting I might possibly take them seriously, will drive me towards them instead of against them. I find that the Theological arguments I find the least compelling are the ones accompanied by the most combative and unforgiving defenders.
How???
Isaiah 53:5–6 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
This passage is absolutely true. The punishment, or chastening, for our well being certainly was upon Him.
Nobody is denying that Christ suffered the wages of sin on our behalf. It did fall upon Him. He shared in our infirmity. He became a curse for us. This was the chastening that we, not He, deserve. He who knew no sin was made sin for us.
You add "instead of us".
No, I don't see.
You appear to assume.
I don't know what you are even assuming really.....
I simply know that you react with vehemence and insult, not engaging argument.
Ofttimes (if I already agree with you, as I often do) it is fun to read and worthy of preaching to a choir.
I don't know if I agree with all of what Jon and Agedman are saying. I don't claim to have abandoned P.S.A....
I just know that asking honest questions (which should be able to stand up to some scrutiny) Is met, not with argument or reason, but with insult and immediate wholesale condemnation.
I never want to change anybody mind. I wouldn't want that responsibility.
I can say Hod changed my mind. After a sermon covering the cross I was convicted that I had taught theory rather than Scripture. It took me months to come to terms with the fact Penal Substitution Theory is not in the actual text of Scripture.....and a much longer period of study and prayer to actually understand Scripture without adding in my own philosophy.
I would have been content had God left me alone with the Theory. I had do much invested, so many sermons preached and theology lessons taught (and a fairly large library of Reformed Theology).
And, I have to admit, it was a hit to my pride having to admit I was wrong in believing Penal Substitution Theory. Try talking to people you mentored and taught, telling them you taught them philosophy rather than Scripture.
But what I gained is so much greater than the damage to my pride. It is something I will never forefit. And I look forward to continued growth and correction.
I haven't changed my mind.
I have simply thought your arguments meaningful and worth consideration, and wanted to ask questions about what your arguments entail so that I could prayerfully consider them in my own right.
That is, of course, met with vehement condemnation. Why not? That is precisely how Christians are supposed to thoughtfully sharpen each other right?
Sure, and that is as it should be.
I'm not there, not even close to there........
But, according to Aaron, I've ALREADY sold out to your heresies and apparently, I buy in to everything you've ever suggested...Why?
Because I asked you for a clarification to make sense of your arguments.
Sing me your sob story...
Try being 43 raised in a conservative Southern Baptist Church and having been convinced the Scripture teaches Annihilationism 2 years ago, and see how much it will wreck your life.
Yup, been there.
No, you truly embrace "SOLA SCRIPTURA"....not "SOLA COTTON MATHER"....there's a HUGE difference.
And it will generate hostility by those whose thinking is tied to Rome.
Welcome to my world.
Continued growth and correction sucks.
It will isolate you and make you no friends.
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Lol.....yep. I'm 53 and have been Southern Baptist all my life.
Jon, from whom were we bought?
Yes, we were bought with a price. Indeed, we were slaves. To whom we we enslaved that we should be bought?
Jon, the story of the Exodus is given to explain this to you and me.
We were purchased from our slave holder at a price. The Bible is not silent on this, but you seem dead set on ignoring it.
Given your questions....
Ransom Theory of Atonement you now propose?
This is a change.
Please explain your conversion to the Ransom Theory of Atonement so as to take some heat off of Jon and Aged....
The Bible is not silent on this at all.
We were enslaved by sin and death. Christ won the victory and freed us from its bonds.
The Exodus is apt. The lamb was the price Israel paid. They did not pay it to God. They did not pay it to Egypt. But they were freed from slavery in Egypt.
You wonder who recieved that payment? I guess you believe it the evil that held us captive, or Satan....or sin and death....or the flesh (even you, as far as you have drifted from Scripture, won't hold that we were slaves to God before we were saved and became slaves to God....your theology won't allow it).
Who was paid? Nobody was paid. We were bought with a price. Christ's blood.
.They'll give him a pass on that one, of course....lol.
But, it is funny.
BTW, Annihilationism is not a bridge too far. John Stott held this position and F.F. Bruce was undecided.They'll give him a pass on that one, of course....lol.
But, it is funny.
It is a matter of interpretation, I suppose. I'm with F.F. Bruce on this one. I have not given it enough thought to hold a dogmatic view. I figure those headed in that general direction should be more invested than I with the topic.
Not to derail....Just wanted to tell you (oddly enough, to encourage you) that I am far more "heretical" than you are, and trying to put "Sola-Scriptura" into practice will isolate you.
Yes, Stott held it and Bruce took the arguments quite seriously....I don't claim to buy your heretical views of the Atonement yet....I just wanted to take them seriously, and asked some questions for clarification.
Apparently, that's where I went wrong. lol!
Just to let you know that even those who "believe" in "Sola-Scriptura"...don't easily put it into practice.
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