Biblical Human Will Limitations

[Van]

... Romans 9:16 teaches the opposite ...

Once again scripture is denied. Total Spiritual Inability doctrine says the lost do not will to be saved, but Romans 9:16 says some of the lost do will to be saved.

 

[Van]

"Keep on striving/struggling/endeavoring to enter" are JESUS' words. Look up ἀγωνίζομαι in the lexicon; "struggle" is a primary meaning. By the way, it is translated "fight" in 1 Timothy 6:12 where it occurs in the same present middle imperative form as Luke 13:24.

The only person here associating Jesus' words "Strive to enter" with salvation is you, my friend. I know salvation is not what He is talking about, because His subject is the kingdom, not eternal salvation, and we are not commanded to "strive" to be saved.

Scripture should dictate our theological understanding, not the other way around.

Folks, behold yet another mind-reader (the only person here...)
And note the continued struggle to change the subject to those finding the narrow way, and from the actual issue, the many Jesus said are seeking salvation, proving once again total spiritual inability is unbiblical. This is the truth some are trying to hide.
And as far as the ludicrous falsehood that Luke 13:24 is not addressing seeking salvation, take a look at your available commentaries. All that I looked at indicate seeking salvation is in view. Among them Matthew Henry, Barnes', Meyer's, Expositor's, Cambridge, Bengel's, and Pulpit Commentary.

 

[Van]

Is the assertion we are not commanded to "strive" to be saved, i.e. find the narrow gate that leads to life a denial of scripture? Of course, but so it goes for those "contending for the faith."

1Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Matthew 13:20-21
“The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

I do not know about others, but for me, I sought in prayer and contemplation, for the conviction and heart-felt commitment to go "all in" for Christ, and after two days of "soul searching" I looked into His wondrous grace, and promised to do my best.

 

[canadyjd]

Once again scripture is denied. Total Spiritual Inability doctrine says the lost do not will to be saved, but Romans 9:16 says some of the lost do will to be saved.

It doesn’t say some of the lost “will to be saved”. The text says it (salvation) does not depend on the man who wills.... but on God who shows mercy. It s the opposite of what you claim.

You take that verse to mean there are some who “will to be saved” but their will isn’t strong enough. You then take this misreading of scripture further to prove “total spiritual inability” is a false belief since some “will to be saved” without intervention from God.

This reading of scripture is at odds with several passages that teach that none seek God. Your belief is contrary to the plain reading of the passage and incompatible with other passages of scripture.

peace to you

 

[Van]

It doesn’t say some of the lost “will to be saved”. The text says it (salvation) does not depend on the man who wills.... but on God who shows mercy. It s the opposite of what you claim.

You take that verse to mean there are some who “will to be saved” but their will isn’t strong enough. You then take this misreading of scripture further to prove “total spiritual inability” is a false belief since some “will to be saved” without intervention from God.

This reading of scripture is at odds with several passages that teach that none seek God. Your belief is contrary to the plain reading of the passage and incompatible with other passages of scripture.

peace to you

The lost willed to be saved, thus total spiritual inability is unbiblical. Next, another absurdity, "their will isn't strong enough." As if salvation depended "will." Salvation depends on God alone.

And did I say "without intervention by God?" Nope so yet another falsehood hoisted to muddy the waters.

This is all they have folks,

 

[Van]

Scripture teaches the lost can will to be saved. Romans 9:16
Scripture teaches the lost can seek salvation by faith or by works, Romans 9:32.
Scripture teaches many seek salvation, Luke 13:24
Scripture teaches the lost are able to repent if persuaded, Luke 10:13

Basically scripture refutes the false doctrine of total spiritual inability over and over again.

 

[canadyjd]

This is all they have folks,

All I have is scripture, accurately understood in the context it was written.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Van]

How can someone seek to enter into eternal salvation and not be able? I asked you this earlier and you "dodged" the question.

Here we yet another slice and dice attack on truth. Was Jesus say people cannot or are not able to seek salvation? Nope, of course not. They were not able to enter through the narrow gate because they entered through the broad gate that leads to destruction.

And what is the gate that allows access to God's saving grace? Faith. We are saved by grace through or by means of our faith as credited by God.

 

[Van]

All I have is scripture, accurately understood in the context it was written.
Thanks for the conversation
peace to you

Folks, here are the "accurately understood in context" scripture claims:
Romans 9:16 does not indicate salvation does not depend on the people that will.

Of course the alternate view is Romans 9:16 teaches some people do will to be saved, just as Luke 13:24 teaches many unsuccessfully seek to be saved.

 

[canadyjd]

Folks, here are the "accurately understood in context" scripture claims:
Romans 9:16 does not indicate salvation does not depend on the people that will.

Of course the alternate view is Romans 9:16 teaches some people do will to be saved, just as Luke 13:24 teaches many unsuccessfully seek to be saved.

The context of Romans 9 is on God, who does the choosing of the elect. When Paul says it does not depend on the man who wills....but on God who has mercy, he is not teaching that men are exercising any will at all, but that God does the choosing. That is the focus. That is the context.

To extrapolate the opposite (that men are exercising will in the choosing of the elect or that men are exercising will in seeking God for salvation) is misunderstanding the context and meaning of the passage.

peace to you

 

[Van]

The context of Romans 9 is on God, who does the choosing of the elect. When Paul says it does not depend on the man who wills....but on God who has mercy, he is not teaching that men are exercising any will at all, but that God does the choosing. That is the focus. That is the context.

To extrapolate the opposite (that men are exercising will in the choosing of the elect or that men are exercising will in seeking God for salvation) is misunderstanding the context and meaning of the passage.

peace to you

Folks, just read Romans 9:16 in context, the meaning does not change, salvation does not depend on the people who will to be saved, but upon God. Pay no attention to those who seek to remove the fact that some people will to be saved to push the false doctrine of total spiritual inability.

 

[canadyjd]

Folks, just read Romans 9:16 in context, the meaning does not change, salvation does not depend on the people who will to be saved, but upon God. Pay no attention to those who seek to remove the fact that some people will to be saved to push the false doctrine of total spiritual inability.

Romans 9 does not teach men “will to be saved”. The context does not support that reading.

I encourage “folks” to see the plain reading of this passage in context and not insert doctrine into the passage which was never intended.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Romans 9 does not teach men “will to be saved”. The context does not support that reading.

I encourage “folks” to see the plain reading of this passage in context and not insert doctrine into the passage which was never intended.

peace to you

Romans 9:16 teaches receiving mercy (verse 15) depends not the one willing nor the one racing, but on God being merciful.
Those that deny scripture teaches of those willing and those racing are unwilling to accept the obvious.

Romans 9:16 (NASB)
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

And just what might be the false doctrine rewrite: So then receiving mercy depends of God. Note the removal, the taking away from scripture, being advocated.

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 9 does not teach men “will to be saved”. The context does not support that reading.

I encourage “folks” to see the plain reading of this passage in context and not insert doctrine into the passage which was never intended.

peace to you

Thought taught that there was a faithful remnant saved out of Israel due to the will and purpose of God?

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 9:16 teaches receiving mercy (verse 15) depends not the one willing nor the one racing, but on God being merciful.
Those that deny scripture teaches of those willing and those racing are unwilling to accept the obvious.

Romans 9:16 (NASB)
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

remember the Potter and the Clay?

 

[Van]

remember the Potter and the Clay?

Utterly off topic post of obfuscation. God is the potter and does bestow mercy upon those whose faith He credits as righteousness. And each and every one of those "willed to receive mercy and be saved."
But willing does not save us, God does from beginning to end.

Scripture teaches the lost can will to be saved. Romans 9:16
Scripture teaches the lost can seek salvation by faith or by works, Romans 9:32.
Scripture teaches many seek salvation, Luke 13:24
Scripture teaches the lost are able to repent if persuaded, Luke 10:13

Basically scripture refutes the false doctrine of total spiritual inability over and over again.

 

[Yeshua1]

Utterly off topic post of obfuscation. God is the potter and does bestow mercy upon those whose faith He credits as righteousness. And each and every one of those "willed to receive mercy and be saved."
But willing does not save us, God does from beginning to end.

Scripture teaches the lost can will to be saved. Romans 9:16
Scripture teaches the lost can seek salvation by faith or by works, Romans 9:32.
Scripture teaches many seek salvation, Luke 13:24
Scripture teaches the lost are able to repent if persuaded, Luke 10:13

Basically scripture refutes the false doctrine of total spiritual inability over and over again.

You and Paul seemed to have gotten different messages from God on what it means!

 

[canadyjd]

Romans 9:16 teaches receiving mercy (verse 15) depends not the one willing nor the one racing, but on God being merciful.
Those that deny scripture teaches of those willing and those racing are unwilling to accept the obvious.

Romans 9:16 (NASB)
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

And just what might be the false doctrine rewrite: So then receiving mercy depends of God. Note the removal, the taking away from scripture, being advocated.

Romans 9 teaches there are two types of people: vessels of wrath created for destruction and vessels of mercy created for God’s glory.

Which of those two groups do these people who “will to be saved” fall into?

If you say “vessels to of wrath”, then you have God condemning people to destruction who are sincerely seeking Him for salvation.

If you say “vessels of mercy”, then you are contradicting this very passage which says it does not depend upon the “man who wills”; a n essence saying it does depend on the man who wills.

Your interpretation is wrong

thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 9 teaches there are two types of people: vessels of wrath created for destruction and vessels of mercy created for God’s glory.

Which of those two groups do these people who “will to be saved” fall into?

If you say “vessels to of wrath”, then you have God condemning people to destruction who are sincerely seeking Him for salvation.

If you say “vessels of mercy”, then you are contradicting this very passage which says it does not depend upon the “man who wills”; a n essence saying it does depend on the man who wills.

Your interpretation is wrong

thanks for the conversation

peace to you

seems that we have a hard time accepting that God is God, and we are not!

 

[Mikey]

Jesus can't be talking about seeking salvation in Luke 13:24 because salvation does not require a constant struggle. I have clearly and repeatedly made this point, and you have clearly and repeatedly failed to address it.

Yeah, Van does this alot.