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Biblical Marriage
- Thread starter Justified
- Start date
Bartimaeus
New Member
Kildare, first of all let me say that there is a Scriptural/moral/law issue here. If God's Word states that an activity is a transgression of His Law then it can never be "Lawful". Abortion may be legal but it will never be lawful. The final test of any law for the Christian is, does this law conform to God's law? Legislative bodies may state an activity is legal but it will never be lawful because it does not fall in line with the Book of Law.
A Sodomite assembly may perform some type of ceremony but it will never be Lawful. In the US we have the "unlimited right to contract". That is a basic right from God. IF a pagan, sodomite quartet wanted to enter into a contract together to do whatever their "imaginations" desire, looking at the current movement of legal decisions in the US today, it would probably be "legal". (and the BB would probably be rifled with opinions to support it) "as in the days of Noah" is our time now.
Thanks -----Bart "It is said that President Andrew Jackson took part in over 100 duels in his lifetime".
No more so than you are an agent of the state when you sign your tax forms or your driver's license or anything else. I am totally unconvinced by this argument. If you are convinced by it, that is fine with me.
Not at all. The state does not require me to perform any marriages. I do not have to perform even one single heterosexual marriage. Any marriage I perform is my choice and my discretion, from the moment I am asked until the moment I sign the certificate. It is my choice.
Signing a marriage certificate for a heterosexual couple in no way implies consent or approval of a homosexual marriage (which is the term we should be using. Sodomite marriage doesn't fit here.)
To use your logic, you are participating in sin by paying your taxes because the government uses that money for all kinds of ungodly purposes. My bet if that you are not consistent. You shop at stores that sell items used in sinfulness. You go to places that are used for sinful purposes. You, through simple buying daily needs, support the ungodly lifestyle of those whose salaries you pay. Therefore, you are a part of the system.
I reject that argument and so do you. Therefore, your argument above totally invalid.
I have made my choice. I will follow Christ. That does not require that I not marry people, unless you know of a verse I don't.
The pastor would lose a chance to do premarital counseling. Other than that, not much. This is already the way it is in many countries. They don't recognize a church marriage. In them, you have to get married at a courthouse. Most Christians in those countries have a church wedding too.
If I never did another wedding, I would be perfectly happy with that.
This is what you are encouraging. You call it a mess but your practice is what would bring it on.
Okay ... whatever ...
I don't disagree but so what??? The fact is that the state requires something that is not contrary to biblical teaching. Therefore, it is the will of God that you obey the authorities that God has ordained. When you fail to obey those authorities, you fail to obey God.
If you read the context, this has nothing to do with what we are talking about. To proclaim Jesus as King was a violation of the law. For them to obey Caesar would have been to violate God's law. That example is irrelevant here because obtaining a marriage license is not a violation of God's law. You should have given that more thought before you said it.
For what??? Until we get to talking Scripture, your opinions don't carry much weight. You have shown no place where obtaining of a marriage license is a violation of God's law. Therefore, if the state requires a marriage license, you are required by God to obtain one for a biblical marriage. That's the bottom line.
It the day comes where obtaining a state license requires us to violate God's law, then I will not do it. If the state were to require me to perform all marriages if I am going to perform any, then I will not do it. But that is not the case.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Amen
Diane
None of which is the issue. Marriage is none of those things. Marriage is the commitment of two people before God to live a life of Christian companionship, compatibility, and sexual union. None of those by itself constitutes a marriage. Isaac did not live in a place where the state required a license and witnesses. However, it is doubtful that he skipped the commitment part of it.
Originally posted by Walls:
Response by Pastor Larry:
It is the issue. What is a biblical marriage? It is the union of a man and a woman as laid out in God's Word, not in what any state requires (license, witness,etc.) and has been so since the beginning. Even though a state may require a license to consider the marriage "legal," this is not contingent upon God as to whether or not He recognizes the union as a true marriage. God ordained marriage, not the state.
If the couple does not get a license, then it is not a biblical marriage under the guidelines set forth in Rom 13 and 1 Peter 2. God does not require less than the state requires. He does require more. Why is this so difficult?? Why do we have people who seem to be advocating direct disobedience to the provisions of Rom 13 and 1 Peter 2?? This seems like an open and shut case.
Apparently you don't see where I am coming from. I am not an "agent of the state" and I have never said God is subject to the state. I do not believe that.
If you advocate "marriage" without a license where it is required, then you advocate rebellion against God. Notice His words: Romans 13:2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
And 1 Peter 2:13-15 13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
He says if you resist authority of government (i.e. fail to subject yourself to its laws), you are opposing the ordinance of God. What is confusing about that to you?
He says that it is the will of God for you to subject yourself to "every human institution" meaning in context, laws of the government ... i.e.., things that the government institutes. He says that to do such is "doing right" and it is a necessary part of "silencing the ignorance of foolish men." It is no wonder there are people who think Christians are foolish. They are ignorant to be sure but we are helping them by refusing to obey God so that we may silence them. As a believer, you are not above the law. You have a greater obligation than the unbeliever to obey the law because your obedience to the law is a part of your evangelism and a part of your submission to God.
Remember, God is the one who said it, not me.
Do you advocate your church ignore the building codes of the city or municipality in which you reside? Based on the thought process you have used to arrive at this, you have to to be consistent. Yet such a position cannot be sustained in light of Scripture.
A marriage license alone does not make a godly marriage. There is certainly more to it. However, a "marriage" without a license where required is fornication ... A couple is not married unless they are obeying the laws of the state in which they reside. If you teach people this, you are encouraging them to commit fornication and to rebel against God. How else do you explain Rom 13 and 1 Peter 2?
We need a good dose of putting aside the opinions of men and listening to the word of God.
I apologize. I thought that it was you who made that claim. Sorry.
But you stated:
This is not always true. Show me where God is subject to the divers state laws regarding marriage.
I do not argue that we should not obtain a marriage license. The question is "What constitutes a biblical marriage?" You are saying it is a license given by the state. The plain and simple fact is that God has shown us in the Bible what constitutes a marriage in His sight. This sacred union is not subject to what one state may say over another.
It's not MY church. It is His... but that's a whole other discussion.
God is not subject to the state, but we are. By implying that biblical marriage is not subject to the state, then if a pastor felt two 14 year olds could get married, then he could biblically do it? Absolutely not. Part of the biblical edict of being subject to the government addresses this very issue: The state has a legitimate stake in the marriage of persons, so to require a license to marry is perfectly acceptible biblically. The state will not issue a marriage license to two 14 year olds, because it doesn't feel that they have the ability to comprehend what it means to enter into a marriage. Now, in Jesus' time, women marrying at 14 was acceptible, but women were also legally banned from owning property or voting in most societies.
"Part of the biblical edict of being subject to the government addresses this very issue: The state has a legitimate stake in the marriage of persons, so to require a license to marry is perfectly acceptible biblically."
You are absolutely right, the state/government has property of your children(have you looked at a birth certificate lately?) When the state grants license to a marriage, it becomes the head of the union and overseer of all that results from that union. That is why the state/government decides what do with assests and children in event of divorce. That is also why the state has the right to take your children away if abuse/neglect is suspected, because when you get that license you let the state become head of your home. (Totally against biblical order!)
"The state will not issue a marriage license to two 14 year olds, because it doesn't feel that they have the ability to comprehend what it means to enter into a marriage. Now, in Jesus' time, women marrying at 14 was acceptible, but women were also legally banned from owning property or voting in most societies."
Excuse me, but the state issues marriage licenses all day long to people who don't comprehend what marriage is all about. That is why there are so many divorces. My grandmother was 13 years old when she got married and knew exactly what she was in for and the responsibilities that were involved and she remained married to the same man until she died. The problem now is every one is allowed to have an excuse and noone keeps their word or obeys God's word.
You are absolutely right, the state/government has property of your children(have you looked at a birth certificate lately?) When the state grants license to a marriage, it becomes the head of the union and overseer of all that results from that union. That is why the state/government decides what do with assests and children in event of divorce. That is also why the state has the right to take your children away if abuse/neglect is suspected, because when you get that license you let the state become head of your home. (Totally against biblical order!)
"The state will not issue a marriage license to two 14 year olds, because it doesn't feel that they have the ability to comprehend what it means to enter into a marriage. Now, in Jesus' time, women marrying at 14 was acceptible, but women were also legally banned from owning property or voting in most societies."
Excuse me, but the state issues marriage licenses all day long to people who don't comprehend what marriage is all about. That is why there are so many divorces. My grandmother was 13 years old when she got married and knew exactly what she was in for and the responsibilities that were involved and she remained married to the same man until she died. The problem now is every one is allowed to have an excuse and noone keeps their word or obeys God's word.
God is not; you are by virtue of God's commands that he gave to you.
No I am not. Please read what I said. A biblical marriage is much more than a license given by the state. My point is that in a state where a license is required, a biblical marriage is required to have a license by virtue of Rom 13 and 1 Peter 2.
Then explain how you can disobey Rom 13.
It's not MY church. It is His... but that's a whole other discussion. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, it is the church you go to so it is 'your church.' Don't play these silly word games. And this is the discussion ... Is the church bound by the laws of the government which God has ordained?
This is a euphemism for the name Jesus and is a violation of the third commandment. If you are so concerned about what God thinks, then listen to what he has explicitly said.
ACtually, if you would read what I wrote, I already answered this question. On page 2 of this thread I said, If the day comes where obtaining a state license requires us to violate God's law, then I will not do it. If the state were to require me to perform all marriages if I am going to perform any, then I will not do it. But that is not the case.if I am to do as you suggest and the state requires me to marry a member of the opposite sex, I am obligated under Rom 13 and 1 Pet to obey, even though it is in direct violation of scripture in Lev 18
Quite clearly, you are wrong. Rom 13 and 1 Peter 2 do not obligate to violate God's laws. That clear principle is set forth in Acts 4 where "We must obey God rather than man." But where obeying the God-ordained government does not require you to disobey God, then you are required to obey God. Obtaining a marriage license does not require you to disobey God. Failure to obtain a marriage license is direct disobedience of God. Remember, he is the one who said it. Your rebellion is rebellion against him according to Rom 13:2.
In the future, please read what I say and avoid accusing me of something I have already answered.
Posted by Pastor Larry:
You are saying (whether you want to admit it or not) that God's divine plan is subjected to the laws of the land of which one state may say "yay" while another, "nay" in regards to reconizing marriage.
As the state grants a marriage license to just about anyone, the state also hands out divorce letters for any reason. Does this constitute a biblical divorce? It doesn't because the Bible shows us what constitutes biblical divorce just as it shows us what constitutes a biblical marriage.
Marriage is not defined nor hinged upon what the state says is marriage. God has already shown us.
God the Creator insituted it back in Genesis and the Lord Jesus Christ reiterated this in the Gospels:
Matthew 19:5-6
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder
Posted by Pastor Larry:
Posted by Pastor Larry:
I believe Romans 13 and I believe 1 Peter 2. However, I do not agree that when a man and a woman come together it is not a biblical marriage in a state which says you must have a license.
You are saying (whether you want to admit it or not) that God's divine plan is subjected to the laws of the land of which one state may say "yay" while another, "nay" in regards to reconizing marriage.
As the state grants a marriage license to just about anyone, the state also hands out divorce letters for any reason. Does this constitute a biblical divorce? It doesn't because the Bible shows us what constitutes biblical divorce just as it shows us what constitutes a biblical marriage.
Marriage is not defined nor hinged upon what the state says is marriage. God has already shown us.
God the Creator insituted it back in Genesis and the Lord Jesus Christ reiterated this in the Gospels:
Matthew 19:5-6
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder
Posted by Pastor Larry:
The state may not consider a man and woman married but it is God who joins them together, not the state. This is biblical marriage. It is not disobedience to God as you claim, using the passages from Romans and 1 Peter. If you want the state to recognize it and give you the benefits of their system, then get a license. If not, then don't.
Posted by Pastor Larry:
Silly word games?? Do we need to start a thread defining what the church is? I would never say "MY Church." If you can do that, go right ahead. I don't consider it a "silly word game."
You have made two contradictory statements. If you believe Rom 13 and 1 Peter 2, and if you get married in a state that requires a license, then you are not biblically married without that license. It is not complicated.
No I am not saying that. God has ordained government and ordained that we live under its laws. God does not give you or anyone else the authority to exempt yourself from them. He said failure to obey the government is failure to obey God. The state does not contravene God's plan in the least.
But a biblical divorce is not a divorce without that letter. You simply cannot just say "I divorce you." Divorce is a legal status.
This was not the argument. God defined marriage and God defined our relationship to the government. HE is the one who defined it, not you or me.
To live together without being married is fornication. This is not hard. I cannot imagine for the life of me how this has generated this much discussion. This is cut and dry. This is simple stuff.
Yes, silly word games. "My church" is the way we describe the church that we go to. If you would prefer that I say "The church that you go to," then pretend that is what I said. This is a simple matter. You are straining out gnats while swallowing camels.
By your reasoning (Larry), God sees a marriage as biblical only when He (God) takes into consideration what each state has stated on the matter. Whether it be get a license or no license necessary, God's peception of the said marriage (according to you) relies on the state.
If you want to say that the license from the state acknowledges what God has already done, then fine. I accept that.
God joins the two. That's biblical. What God has joined together, let no man put asunder.
Posted by Larry:
If you want to say that the license from the state acknowledges what God has already done, then fine. I accept that.
God joins the two. That's biblical. What God has joined together, let no man put asunder.
Posted by Larry:
Your condescending attitude nauseates me. It is not MY church, it is not YOUR church, it is HIS church. HIS body. It's an organism, not an organization.