Biblical Marriage

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Grace1998:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What about Romans Chapter 13??

God has defined marriage in His Word. Whether in obedience or disobedience to the state, it is still marriage in God's sight. </font>[/QUOTE]So I ask again for what seems like the hundredth time, by what authority do you ignore God's teaching to us in Romans 13:2 ??

Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

He says that for you to disregard the command of the state is to disregard his authority. Therefore, you would not be in obedience to God. How do you reconcile this?

Additionally, I am still curious as to whether the church you attend follows the zoning codes, the building and safety codes, the fire codes, etc. Why or why not? Does following these codes put the God of the church you attend in submission to the state?

 

[TWade]

Posted by Larry:
So I ask again for what seems like the hundredth time, by what authority do you ignore God's teaching to us in Romans 13:2 ??

I don't ingnore it.

Posted by Larry:
He says that for you to disregard the command of the state is to disregard his authority. Therefore, you would not be in obedience to God. How do you reconcile this?

This is not the case concerning His establishment of what marriage is.

Posted by Larry:
Additionally, I am still curious as to whether the church you attend follows the zoning codes, the building and safety codes, the fire codes, etc. Why or why not? Does following these codes put the God of the church you attend in submission to the state?

Irrelevant to the question of biblical marriage.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Grace1998:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Posted by Larry:
So I ask again for what seems like the hundredth time, by what authority do you ignore God's teaching to us in Romans 13:2 ??

I don't ingnore it.</font>[/QUOTE]But it seems very clear that you have. You have said that you can rebel against the state's authority without rebelling against God's authority. That can only lead us to the conclusion that you are either 1) ignoring Rom 13:2 or 2) directly and intentionally disobeying God. Since you deny the first, are we to assume the latter??

This is not the case concerning His establishment of what marriage is.

But why?? Tell us how you come to this conclusion. Why is marriage not subject to state law??

Irrelevant to the question of biblical marriage.

Actually it is directly relevant as I already showed you. You are insisting that the God ordained institution of marriage does not have to come under the laws of the state. I am wondering if you are consistent and reject any state or municipal regulation of the God ordained institution of the church.

My suspicion is that you are inconsistent and don't want to admit it ... so you claim irrelevance.

The question is: What do you really believe? Do you really believe that God ordained institutions are completely free from any state regulation?? Or do you simply want to argue that for some God ordained institutions??

Why beat around the bush? Why not just tell us what you believe?

 

[Bartimaeus]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

Since we don't serve alcoholic beverages, we are exempt from that.

We do not nor do we believe in it. Yet it is not out of reach for the State to do something like that. History repeats itself and any inspecting agent of the state will not be your friend in the end. Our Baptist heritage is filled with churches that had to hide because they could not practice their faith without reprisal. It was in a time when the LAW said that they had to have inspectors present. So they simply met without the inspectors. They must have been meeting without Romans 13 in their Bibles.


[/QUOTE][/qb]Nothing since we don't baptize in a river.

You skirt the real issue. Russian Baptist Churches were under a law that said they could not proselyte anyone under a certain age limit. Some had no trouble with the law and lived with it. Some broke the law and read Romans 13 the next Sunday in church and were at peace with the scripture and with God.

I wouldn't worry about it because neither would apply to us. However, anyone who baptizes in a river in the north in Dec, Jan, or Feb needs to have their head examined ...

Be careful now... I can show you historical records of Baptist Churches that had to Baptise in rivers and it was in the middle of the winter and the Roman Church said the same thing you are saying.

However, if the state wished to be present, I would tell them the times and invite them to come.

There is a difference brother when an agent tells you he will be there whether you like it or not to check you out, to see if you are being obedient to the laws of the state or you will be punished with imprisonment.

There is no problem there. We like visitors in all of our services and baptism and communion are two prime times to share the gospel with people. They would be more than welcome. Their presence or absence will not change what we do.

Bro Larry, I am like you and I understand what you are saying about preaching the gospel, yet you must understand that we cannot play hopscotch with the state. If you believe the same way I do on escatology then you must recognize the state is a beast and even a beast on a chain can and will bite.

"This Day in Baptist History" E. Wayne Thompson and David L. Cummins, BJU Press is a good starter for historical information that speaks to these issues.

Thanks -----Bart "the dueling society was a polite society".

 

[TWade]

This will be my last response to you concerning this as it appears to me that you are only interested in bickering.

Posted by Larry:
But it seems very clear that you have. You have said that you can rebel against the state's authority without rebelling against God's authority. That can only lead us to the conclusion that you are either 1) ignoring Rom 13:2 or 2) directly and intentionally disobeying God. Since you deny the first, are we to assume the latter??

If the state doesn't recognize a man and a woman as married, there cannot be rebellion because to the state, the couple are not married. Your reasoning says that God will not see them as married because the state ignores their joining. I say God has joined them together without the state and what God has joined together, let no man put asunder.

Posted by Larry:
But why?? Tell us how you come to this conclusion. Why is marriage not subject to state law??

As I have said over and over and over again, God is the one who joins a man and a woman. You can't possibly think that God's blessing or perception of a couple who He said HE divinely joins together has sundry opinions (e.g. one state says get a license while another says no, while another says common law, while another says etc. etc.) based upon or subject to the whim or thoughts of every individual state and lawmaker.

The point is, is that God sees a man and a woman who have been joined together as married regardless of what the state may say. It is really simple. God ordained, God established. Not up for discussion by lawmakers.

Posted by Larry:
Actually it is directly relevant as I already showed you.

It is not relevant to the discussion of what biblical marriage is. You merely want to pick.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
We do not nor do we believe in it. Yet it is not out of reach for the State to do something like that. History repeats itself and any inspecting agent of the state will not be your friend in the end. Our Baptist heritage is filled with churches that had to hide because they could not practice their faith without reprisal. It was in a time when the LAW said that they had to have inspectors present. So they simply met without the inspectors. They must have been meeting without Romans 13 in their Bibles.

Out of reach vs. inspecting what we do is not the issue. If they want to come inspect, come inspect. My point is that I don't care. We are going to do what we do whether they are here or not. I would be perfectly happy to meet without the inspectors, if the inspectors come and tell us that we cannot do something that God commanded us to do.

I think that is where marriage and the stuff you are talking about does not add up. In marriage, the state is not asking us to do anything unbiblical, or anything that violates a biblical command. In observing our communion, the state is not asking us to do anything unbiblical. Now, if the state observer steps in and says, "You cannot serve that person communion," we would disregard that order since it violates a direct biblical command. There is no direct biblical command violate by having an observer to whom we will not submit.

Russian Baptist Churches were under a law that said they could not proselyte anyone under a certain age limit. Some had no trouble with the law and lived with it. Some broke the law and read Romans 13 the next Sunday in church and were at peace with the scripture and with God.

This is a law that directly violates the biblical command. Therefore, it is ouside the bounds of Rom 13. We would disregard it.

Be careful now... I can show you historical records of Baptist Churches that had to Baptise in rivers and it was in the middle of the winter and the Roman Church said the same thing you are saying.

They are better men that I am ... Seriously, there is nothing biblically mandated about baptizing people in those kinds of weather conditions. If some choose to do it, more power to them. I baptized my neighbor across the street indoors this past spring when the baptistry heater was not working. He came down with pneumonia and missed a week of work ...

There is a difference brother when an agent tells you he will be there whether you like it or not to check you out, to see if you are being obedient to the laws of the state or you will be punished with imprisonment.

What is the difference?? He is not a member of this church, therefore he has no standing to speak in teh church. He has no mandate in teh church to do anything but observe. By allowing him to attend as an observer, I have granted him no authority to do anything whatsoever. If he decides to put my in prison, then so be it. I will not do something unbiblical for him.

The bottom line is that the church is not under the authority of the state if the state mandates something unbiblical. Following the principle of Rom 13, as much as possible, live in peace with all men. We have no reason to resist laws that have no bearing on our biblically mandated practices. If the state says, "Have a handicapped ramp," then by all means have one. There is nothing lost and God is not under the authority of the state because the state said to make a way for handicapped people to get in the doors. It becomes an issue when disobedience is mandated. At that point, we say No, we must obey God rather tha man. Up to that point, we can and must do both.

"This Day in Baptist History" E. Wayne Thompson and David L. Cummins, BJU Press is a good starter for historical information that speaks to these issues.

I have it within arm's reach

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Grace1998:
This will be my last response to you concerning this as it appears to me that you are only interested in bickering.

Not really. I have no interest in bickering at all. I am interested in biblical truth.

If the state doesn't recognize a man and a woman as married, there cannot be rebellion because to the state, the couple are not married. Your reasoning says that God will not see them as married because the state ignores their joining. I say God has joined them together without the state and what God has joined together, let no man put asunder.

[/qb]But if the state, with the authority vested in it by God, says "To be married you must have a license," it is rebellion against God to not have one. There is no way around this.

As I have said over and over and over again, God is the one who joins a man and a woman. You can't possibly think that God's blessing or perception of a couple who He said HE divinely joins together has sundry opinions (e.g. one state says get a license while another says no, while another says common law, while another says etc. etc.) based upon or subject to the whim or thoughts of every individual state and lawmaker.

And as I have said over and over again, that is not the point. God's blessing on a person is related to his obedience to the laws of the state in which he lives. God called obedience to the state the "will of God." It is one of the few things directly called the "will of God." Interestingly enough, one of the few is also about living in fornication. How ironic that is in this discussion.

God has appointed the state as his minister in this era. You may not like that but God is the one who did it. In so doing, God did not subject himself to state laws. He appointed the state as his minister.

The point is, is that God sees a man and a woman who have been joined together as married regardless of what the state may say. It is really simple. God ordained, God established. Not up for discussion by lawmakers.

And the point is, that if the state says they are not married, then they are not married in the sight of God. To do so would be to rebel against God. How simple can this be?? It is amazing that you have found a way to stretch this out for five pages. This should have been a 1 page thread.

It is not relevant to the discussion of what biblical marriage is. You merely want to pick.

I think my comments stand verified that you are unwilling to show us whether you are consistent. The only thing we can conclude is that you are inconsistent and unwilling to admit it publicly. I don't blame you. I would be hesitant to after spending all this time defending violation of God's edict over something so insignificant.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Grace1998:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What about Romans Chapter 13??

God has defined marriage in His Word. Whether in obedience or disobedience to the state, it is still marriage in God's sight. </font>[/QUOTE]The same question still applies.....

 

[TWade]

Solomon had 700 wives. Was this rebellion against GOd's will? Yes. Genesis reveals that it was, as does 1 Kings 11. Yet God still considered them as Solomon's wives (1Kings 11). Solomon was in direct rebellion against God when he took these women to wife, but God saw them as his wives.

Abraham and Sarah were disobedient to God when Sarah gave Abraham her handmaid to wife. This was direct rebellion against what God wanted, yet God considered Hagar as Abraham's wife.

Now, consider our day. Say it's rebellion against the state until your tongue falls off and it still will not change the fact that it is marriage in the sight of God.

 

[TWade]

Posted by Larry:
It is amazing that you have found a way to stretch this out for five pages. This should have been a 1 page thread.

That's pretty funny, seeing that you have posted almost twice the number of posts to this thread than myself.

(Couldn't resist this one.)

Keep chirpin'.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Grace1998:
Solomon had 700 wives. Was this rebellion against GOd's will? Yes. Genesis reveals that it was, as does 1 Kings 11. Yet God still considered them as Solomon's wives (1Kings 11). Solomon was in direct rebellion against God when he took these women to wife, but God saw them as his wives.

Abraham and Sarah were disobedient to God when Sarah gave Abraham her handmaid to wife. This was direct rebellion against what God wanted, yet God considered Hagar as Abraham's wife.

Now, consider our day. Say it's rebellion against the state until your tongue falls off and it still will not change the fact that it is marriage in the sight of God.

So you are saying that it is okay to live in rebellion against God? And you are encouraging people to do that?? That may be worse that where you started ...

That's pretty funny, seeing that you have posted almost twice the number of posts to this thread than myself.

(Couldn't resist this one.)

Keep chirpin'.

That is obviously because I started before you did and have been replying to more people than you have. The fact of the matter is that you still haven't answered the question ... for obvious reasons ...

 

[TWade]

Posted by Larry:
So you are saying that it is okay to live in rebellion against God? And you are encouraging people to do that?? That may be worse that where you started

You said without the state a couple were not married, even in God's eyes. I 've shown with Scripture that this is not the case. I HAVE answered the question -- What is biblical marriage? I've answered the question with Scripture. Take it wherever you want to fulfill your earnest desire to be right.

[ November 09, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Grace1998 ]

 

[TWade]

Posted by Larry:
It is amazing that you have found a way to stretch this out for five pages. This should have been a 1 page thread.

Posted by Grace1998:
That's pretty funny, seeing that you have posted almost twice the number of posts to this thread than myself.

Posted by Larry:
That is obviously because I started before you did and have been replying to more people than you have.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Grace1998:
You said without the state a couple were not married, even in God's eyes. I 've shown with Scripture that this is not the case. I HAVE answered the question -- What is biblical marriage?

That is not what I said.

I said a marriage is not a biblical marriage without a state license [/i]if the state requires one.[/i] The marriage does not depend on the state. You don't seem to understand that. The marriage depends on teh believer being obedient to God in the matter.

I've answered the question with Scripture.

You have given no Scripture that addresses how a couple gets married ... and for obvious reasons. Scripture does not address the "how" of marriage. It simply tells us what it is.

But the question you haven't answered is not that one. Once again you appear to be twisting words to accomplish your own ends. The question you didn't answer was the question about the church you attend and the consistency with which you hold your position on this issue ...

I am trying to figure our where you are coming from. You are insistent on stonewalling for some reason ... Who knows why ... unless to hide your inconsistency.

 

[Walls]

When God makes a promise with His people does He go to the state and get a license? Why no, He makes a covenant with His people.

Does not the New Testament(covenant) liken the relationship between Christ and the church to that of husband and wife? It would only make sense that if we are to follow the examples in the Bible, that the standard set forth in scripture would be that of covenant! And would definetly comply with Acts 5:29.

Plain and simple, we are to follow the examples laid out in the Bible and God does set the standard regarding marriage, therefore nothing else is required. Just obedience!

 

[dianetavegia]

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

I think we have had just about enough of the bickering. I will entertain a motion to allow the thread to continue only if my motion is seconded by cival posting, any nastiness will result in the thread being closed.
Murph

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Walls:
Plain and simple, we are to follow the examples laid out in the Bible and God does set the standard regarding marriage, therefore nothing else is required. Just obedience!

Since the Bible examples show that we shoudl faithfully attend church, is it required that we follow the traffic laws to get there?? Can I drive on the left side of the road at 80 miles an hour because the state has no authority in matters that God has commanded or set an example in?? Can a 12 year old get in the car and drive it to church since he is "obeying God"??

Since God commands that we are to meet as a church, can we disregard the building and safety codes of our local city?? Can we have faulty wiring and no fire extinguishers and no emergency lights or exits simply because God is not under the authority of the state??

See how your logic just doesn't add up??? You, along with Grace, are inconsistent. You pick marriage as a "hill to die on" but don't apply your same position to other things. To be under the laws of the state is not rebellion against God. And that no more places God under the authority of the state than it does under the man on the moon.

This arguments are flawed from a basic perspective. God instituted marriage and tells us what marriage should be. No one argues with that. He also tells us to live in submission to the state These two things do not contradict each other. There is no violation of God's law to obtain a marriage license. To fail to obtain one (if the state requires it) is to disobey God according to Rom 13:2. It does not allow the state to define what a marriage is and it does not change the definition of marriage that God has given.

I think the logic you used in your post is an inherently flawed logic that does not stand up to the test of consistency. It sounds very pious but it just doesn't work.

 

[dianetavegia]

The Christian Testimony of a couple living in a common law marriage (without a state license) is greatly damaged no matter how loud they yell and quote scripture.

I have a drivers license and get it renewed every few years. I NEVER litter and when I found out my oldest son had thrown down some things on a vacant lot, made him spend Saturday cleaning up that vacant lot. We report even tiny amounts of unreported income to the IRS even tho it means lots of extra pages and we don't make enough for it to matter.

Even the appearance of evil can ruin a testimony. I would not allow my child to play at the home of a couple who was not 'legally' married, no matter how nice they seem.

Diane

 

[Walls]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
See how your logic just doesn't add up??? You, along with Grace, are inconsistent. You pick marriage as a "hill to die on" but don't apply your same position to other things. To be under the laws of the state is not rebellion against God. And that no more places God under the authority of the state than it does under the man on the moon.

This arguments are flawed from a basic perspective. God instituted marriage and tells us what marriage should be. No one argues with that. He also tells us to live in submission to the state These two things do not contradict each other. There is no violation of God's law to obtain a marriage license. To fail to obtain one (if the state requires it) is to disobey God according to Rom 13:2. It does not allow the state to define what a marriage is and it does not change the definition of marriage that God has given.

I think the logic you used in your post is an inherently flawed logic that does not stand up to the test of consistency. It sounds very pious but it just doesn't work. [/QB]

The last thing I want to do is to throw stones, but the reality is that I am not one sided at all. I believe in freedom of religion and as long as that freedom doesn't harm another person, then I am not disobeying God's word. I have been given the freedom from the government and I will not give up that freedom.

Did you ever wonder how the Israelites wound up in slavery? They first have plenty of freedoms in the land of Egypt but what happened? Did they just wake up one day and were slaves or did it happen over a period of time? I would venture to say that a person who believes that freedom of religion is limited will eventually turn into a slave.

Remember Moses' argument to pharaoh to let the people go to worship God and wouldn't let them do it. Just wait until you aren't allowed to go and worship when you want, then it won't matter about fire extinguishers and lighted exits, you will be meeting in the dark and you will need some sort of fire to provide light!