Biblical Penal Substitution

[Arthur King]

I still do not understand how non PST atonement views deal with the wrath of God?

see my post #192. The death of Jesus averts/reverses the wrath of God, but the wrath of God is not displaced upon Jesus. Just as the blood of the passover lamb averts the angel of death, but the angel of death does not slay the passover lamb.

 

[percho]

Without agreeing with you, may I ask what you think it means that the Lord Jesus was made a sin offering?

Not Jon but a thought: and Abraham saith, 'God doth provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt-offering, my son;' and they go on both of them together.

 

[percho]

I believe this is the same as saying that Christ redeemed us from the curse having become a curse for us, Christ shared in our infirmity. The Father sent the Son, but at the same time the Son set aside His own glory to become as one of us.

The description of "sin offering" is simply looking at the aspect of the Father sending or offering the Son - or the Son laying down His own life - to redeem us from our sins.

I think that this also is related to Christ set forth as a Propitiation (as a "propitiation" is a "sin offering" that turns aside wrath; it is a sin offering with wrath in mind).

If it helps clarify things, @Martin Marprelate , I do not think that using the term "sin offering" is what separates our view. I know that you would agree that God set forth Christ as a Propitiation, and that Christ lay down His life for our sins, etc.

I think the difference does have to do with what was accomplished at the cross (we both agree it was redemption, but how that redemption was accomplished).

Would you agree that the concept of the sinless One, giving his life, his soul being, a ransom required him becoming, sin?

How can the wages be paid?----- and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

[JonC]

Would you agree that the concept of the sinless One, giving his life, his soul being, a ransom required him becoming, sin?

How can the wages be paid?----- and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I am not comfortable saying Jesus "became sin" without qualifying that Jesus did not literally become sin. But yes, He died as a Ransom for us and for our sin.

The wages of sin was paid by Christ. He became a curse for us. He suffered and died under the powers of darkness, the powers that held mankind in darkness to liberate us.

 

[Arthur King]

I am not comfortable saying Jesus "became sin" without qualifying that Jesus did not literally become sin. But yes, He died as a Ransom for us and for our sin.

The wages of sin was paid by Christ. He became a curse for us. He suffered and died under the powers of darkness, the powers that held mankind in darkness to liberate us.

Important point of clarification for this thread. Wages are not paid. Wages are earned or received. Thus, death is not paid either. There is no such thing as a "debt of death" as many penal substitution advocates mistakenly claim. That is the exact opposite of what the Bible says.

On the cross, Jesus receives the wages of sin undeservedly because he is without sin, thus justice demands that these wages be taken back, that death be reversed, hence the resurrection.

 

[JonC]

Important point of clarification for this thread. Wages are not paid. Wages are earned or received. Thus, death is not paid either. There is no such thing as a "debt of death" as many penal substitution advocates mistakenly claim. That is the exact opposite of what the Bible says.

On the cross, Jesus receives the wages of sin undeservedly because he is without sin, thus justice demands that these wages be taken back, that death be reversed, hence the resurrection.

True, that was my mistake. Thank you for catching it.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus took upon Himself these wagee that we deserve, but He is without sin.

We will also pay these wages, but we are saved through death. The wages of sin are death but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Jesus is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world.

But the Passover was not an atonement for sins. The lamb died to free Israel from bondage in Egypt. Likewise we see this image when it comes to the bondage of sin and death. The Passover was not about Israel's sin. It was not about Egypt's sin. It was about God's glory in freeing Israel from its bonds.

The lamb died so that the Israelites would not suffer the same fate as the Egyptians, hence the name 'passover' (c.f. Exodus 12:13). There was nothing in the Israelites that made them less worthy of judgement than the Egyptians, just as there is nothing in the Christian at the point of salvation that makes him more worthy than his neighbour. Salvation belongs to our God.
You are right, of course, that it's all about God's glory, and you are right that we are freed from the bonds of Satan just as Israel was freed from the power and bondage of Pharaoh

 

[JonC]

The lamb died so that the Israelites would not suffer the same fate as the Egyptians, hence the name 'passover' (c.f. Exodus 12:13). There was nothing in the Israelites that made them less worthy of judgement than the Egyptians, just as there is nothing in the Christian at the point of salvation that makes him more worthy than his neighbour.

Scripture presents the Passover as God's deliverance from bondage, not just escaping Egypt's fate. The whole point of the plagues was to glorify God in freeing Israel from bondage.

The plagues were not God judging Egypt for her sins . They were about glorifying God in Israel's delieverance from bondage. This is central to the Hebrew faith. Passover was not about sin except as a foreshadow of God's greater deliverance.

 

[Salty]

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