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Featured Biblical Penal Substitution

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Apr 27, 2020.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You can look through them and see, but it is not important.

    Here is why -

    In Romans Paul says that God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh as an offering for sin.

    That is what I believe.
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    What I believe is that in Romans Paul says that God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh on account of sin. I have explained my reasons for that.
     
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  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    [/QUOTE]


    I agree with you.

    I believe the same concept is seen in Heb 2:9

    He was made a little lower than the angels, because the death existed, lower than the angels that he might taste death, die for us.

    He who knew no sin was made sin, therefore, he gave his life. That put his like in the hands of the Father.
     
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Romans 8:3
    For what the Law could not do, weak b as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.

    I am not arguing against your translation. I am, however, arguing against your insistence that all other interpretations (and here the NASB) us grammatically impossible.

    Just defend your view of your position and I will mine.
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    'For what the Law could not do, weak b as it was through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh.'
    I have done. See my posts #144 and, particularly #151.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You choose one translation (NKJV) over others. That does not mean the NASB, NIV, and HCSV offer grammatically impossible translations. The KJV and the ESV tells us God sent Christ "for sin", and the NET "concerning sin" (which is as a sin offering if Christ is the propitiation for sin).

    My point is not my view is correct and yours us wrong. My point is you are wrong that Christ being a sin offering is an impossible translation and there is no need to even go there.

    Even if it should read "on acvount of sin" this would not make PSA correct. We all believe Christ died for/ on acvount of/ concerning/ and because of sin.

    Why squabble about the translations of a word when it does not even prove the topic at hand?
     
  7. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    having known that, not with corruptible things -- silver or gold -- were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, (Adam) but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's -- foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested (In the likeness of sinful flesh) in the last times because of you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

    he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, (In the likeness of sinful flesh) that he may break up the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8 YLT
    Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, (In the likeness of sinful flesh) that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- Heb 2:14 YLT

    because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin; Rom 5:12 YLT

    Can you all not see, before the foundation of the world, who and whose sin and whose works was going to be condemned in the flesh?

    But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, (singular Adam) that thou art mindful of him? or the Son of Man, (singular Christ) that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    You may want to read again what I wrote earlier, because you don't seem to have understood it.
    I have not said that it is an impossible translation; I have said that I do not think it is the right one and I have explained why.
    FWIW, I just checked out William Hendriksen's commentary and he wrote, "Although it must be granted that peri hamartias can mean 'for a sin offering,' that sense would seem to be somewhat foreign to the present context." I only mention it to show that my view is not unsupported.
     
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  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Here is the latest one. Scott Drive Church It's the one entitled 'make every effort.'
    I'm not very pleased with it; for some reason I'm swaying from side to side most of the time. :oops: But preaching without a congregation is very strange. I admire people like Alistair Begg who can do it so well
     
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sorry if I misunderstood.

    I was reading your reply as if you were trying to exclude my interpretation as possible based on the text rather than as a support for your interpretation.

    I apologize for the misunderstanding.
     
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thank you for the link. I will watch it. I am sure it was fine. We tend to be overly critical of ourselves.

    Now.... On your last video I did notice you talk with an accent. You may want to work on the President's English. :Biggrin.
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Ha! When I was a youngster, one of my teachers mentioned speaking the 'King's English.' Being the horrible precocious child I was then (much as you see me today!), I said, "Shouldn't that be the Queen's English, Sir? I was informed in no uncertain terms that just because the monarch had changed, it didn't mean the English had.
    However, after another 50-odd years of Her Majesty, everyone says, the Queen's English.

    My mother was a teacher of elocution and speech training. Any time I spoke with anything resembling an accent, I got a clip round the ears and told to "speak properly!"
     
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I never knew of the "King's English". That is interesting.

    My problem is the rules on this side on the pond has changed.

    At one time we double spaced after sentences (this was due to the font prior to the advent or availablity of word processing programs). Not that has changed (as Microsoft Word constantly reminds me since the last update).

    We were taught not to end a sentence with a preposition. Now it is fine...to.

    Once whom and who were used appropriately. Now who is appropriate either way (and whom is fading).
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think you did well. You were swaying, you delivered the sermon very well. Like big pulpits (and not clear), and tend to walk around a bit. The most difficult part for me was not to just lean on the pulpit as if I were hanging on for dear life. Walking a bit and addressing different parts of the congregation helps me.

    I do not think I would do well without a congregation.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You fail to understand that while ujpon that Cross, Jesus the Son of God willingly became the sin offering for our sales, and as thus, experienced the Hell lost sinners do in their final judgement!
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So Jesus had our sin nature?
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not so. I completely understand what you are saying. I willfully and knowingly state I believe it is false.

    Failing to understand something and rejecting something are two very different things.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Jesus had a human nature.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    what did Jesus mean by being forsaken by the Father while being our Sin Bearer then?
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Which would be having a sin nature then!
     
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