Biblical Reasons for Men as Deacons

[ScottEmerson]

Truths abotu II John:

The lady is chosen.
The congregants of her church are referred to as "her children."
Verse 4 calls them "your children"
We see in Verses 5-6, that he specifically gives her a command. The intimation is that this command should be passed on to "her children."

I think that it is clear that this chosen lady has some specific power in the church. Using Occam's Razor, the clearest understanding is that she is, indeed, the pastor. Other interpretations force presuppositions upon the clear text.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Ron, for a great book about women serving in the ministry, check out "Why Not Women : A Biblical Study of Women in Missions, Ministry, and Leadership" by Loren Cunningham and David Joel Hamilton.

(For the record, this book is written quite conservatively, which may be surprising to some people)

 

[Gunther]

Scott, this might surprise you, but people who teach that women can be in authority over men in a church, are not conservative. They might not be full-blown liberals, but that does not make them conservative.

For a good book as to why women cannot be in authority over men in both the home and church, read the Bible.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Gunther:
Scott, this might surprise you, but people who teach that women can be in authority over men in a church, are not conservative.

Maybe not, but they might be biblical in their theology. Being “conservative” is not a good thing when you conserve the errors and shortsightedness of the past.

I, for one, have never wanted to be “conservative” – I want to be biblical.

For a good book as to why women cannot be in authority over men in both the home and church, read the Bible.

You’re making an assumption that the Bible teaches your views. Believe it or not, but many of us who read the Bible very carefully have come to different conclusions about the role of women in the New Testament church.

It certainly does not hurt to read some of the books that people here suggest and compare what the books say against the teaching of the New Testament.

Personally, I strongly recommend the Earle Ellis book mentioned at the beginning of this thread. He deals almost exclusively with the text, context and the substance of Paul’s writing. (I say “almost exclusively” because he also brings in a passage from 1 Peter to illuminate the 1st century context of the New Testament church.)

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Gunther:
Scott, this might surprise you, but people who teach that women can be in authority over men in a church, are not conservative. They might not be full-blown liberals, but that does not make them conservative.

There is a difference between conservative and fundamental. Perhaps you are thinking that a person who believes that women can be in authority are not fundamental. I would agree there. However, a person can quite easily be a conservative.

For a good book as to why women cannot be in authority over men in both the home and church, read the Bible.

I echo Baptist Believer here. Many of the conservatives who advocate women who could be in authority use the Biblical text. A good number of the passages that are used as proof-texts to keep women out of leadership positions in the church are very weak and rely on several presuppositions. The fact is that there are several women who have authority over men listed in the Bible, and Paul commends them for their service. People like Priscilla (who taught Apollos - who was a man), Phoebe (who was a deaconness), and Junia (who was a woman apostle - wow!) show pretty clearly that God has also entrusted women with leadership positions in Biblical times.

 

[USN2Pulpit]

Gentlemen, this thread has been hijacked. It could have been a good thread, but now it's turned into one of those endless debates so common on this BBS. I simply wanted to know how you all would have responded to this young lady's question.

I'll know better than to ask for advice on this in the future. People on bulletin boards have a natural urge to debate, and in doing so, forget the intention of the original poster.

 

[Gunther]

Originally posted by USN2Pulpit:
Gentlemen, this thread has been hijacked. It could have been a good thread, but now it's turned into one of those endless debates so common on this BBS. I simply wanted to know how you all would have responded to this young lady's question.

I'll know better than to ask for advice on this in the future. People on bulletin boards have a natural urge to debate, and in doing so, forget the intention of the original poster.

USN2Pulpit, I answered you on the first page. You can appeal to the order of the Trinity. This is exactly what Paul does in 1 Cor. 11.

 

[ScottEmerson]

I answered it as well. You also may want to let her know of the debate that currently is occurring in the Baptist church about ordination of women. I think this post is evidence enough thta not everyone agrees with ordaining only men. Letting her research it for herself would help her in her theological and spiritual development, wouldn't you say?

 

[Ps104_33]

I Tim 3:12 says

Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Why would Paul use the phrase "husband of one wife .Why didnt he accomadate woman also?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
Why would Paul use the phrase "husband of one wife .Why didnt he accomadate woman also?

Good question. The easist answer is found in verse 11. In talking about the qualifications of deacons, Paul says, "In the same way, wives/women should be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything."

Understanding that the base word there (gune) can mean wife or woman, we can see that Paul very well could be giving the qualifications for women deacons.

 

[Gunther]

Scott, you have to assume that position. Further, you still cannot provide where it would carry any authority with it. Until then...

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Gunther:
Scott, you have to assume that position. Further, you still cannot provide where it would carry any authority with it. Until then...

The understanding of the early church was that women could serve as deacons. Also, there must ALSO be the assumption that gune means "wife." Looking at the information provided both as instruction from Paul and the evidences of women serving in leaderhsip roles, I do not understand why people continue to want to regulate women to a substandard church position.

 

[Gunther]

Scott, either you don't know the arguments, or you know them and are using the same worn out rhetoric.

Women are not substandard. They have a different role.

Provide one passage that suggests a leadership role over men that a woman had.

 

[USN2Pulpit]

 

[Don]

USN2Pulpit, if it hasn't been provided already, look at Ephesians 5:23.

 

[USN2Pulpit]

That principle was the basis of my answer to her. I told her that we believed that God considers us equally valuable, but that we each have different responsibilities. And even though our world tries to tell us "we're all the same" (between genders) we know that we're not. God is wise, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of men and of women.

I also told her that in my case, my wife helps me so much in my deacon ministry, she might be referred to as a servant of the church also. She is fulfilling her God-given role in supporting me. And praise God for her obedience, because I don't know how I'd do it without her submission to God in this respect.

Anyway, I'm not sure of how well I did in answering her question. It's fairly clear that there are many here who would challenge my interpretation of scripture in this regard.

 

[Pastor Larry]

There is a certain amount of authority given to the deacons according to Acts 6 (if you believe that passage refers to deacons -- I do). To them was given the authority of the disbursement of material provisions.

There is no instance in teh NT of a woman occupying the office of deacon. The reference to "gune" in v. 11 refers most likely to the wives of deacons since he addresses the personal lives of deacons both before and after (v. 10 and v. 12). There is no reason to think that he jumped from deacons to someone else and then back to deacons. It is much more reasonable to believe that he discusses deacons all the way through and that v. 11 simply refers to something about the deacons life that is a qualification for being a deacon. Therefore, "gune" should be understood as "wife (of a deacon)."

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Phoebe was a deacon and Paul praised her ministry. (Romans 16:1)

The only places where I can find the term "deacon" being used in the Bible are:

Phil.1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

1Tim.3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
[10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
[12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
[13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 16:1 says that Phebe is a "servant of the church" and a "succourer of many" Succourer means helper.

Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
[2] That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

I don't see where this passage supports your statement that she was a deacon.

 

[Rev. Joshua]

I can't believe it's the 21st century and there are still baptists trying to limit the role of women in the Church. Hunting for a head againsts a brick wall emoticon.

Joshua

 

[USN2Pulpit]

Rev J, I'm sure you can believe it.