Biblical Reasons for Men as Deacons

Here ya go.

 

Examine the life of Priscilla and how she had leadership over Apollos. That in and of itself SHOULD be enough to change your mind.... but it probably won't.

Also, look into the apostleship of Junia.

 

Dear Joshua, I think your statement implies that people are behind this. I assure you as a woman I would love to find a scripture to support woman being in any office in the Bible, but I've looked and the Bible just doesn't support it.

This isn't a grey area like so many other discussion, how I wish it were. But the scripture plainly says "Husband of one wife" in the description of what qualifies a person for this office. I didn't write it....that's what it says.

I'm searching for the shugging shoulders icon.

Hey, I don't like it either, but that's what it says, so what can I do?

 

Then you're saying that the Bible is wrong. Why would the word not be translated correctly in one place and correctly in others? Why would the office of deacon have the qualification of "Being the husband of one wife" if that were a lie? And why on earth would a person have to know Hebrew to understand the Bible? The idea that there is information out there that isn't available to anyone who doesn't have a Masters in theology or the Hebrew Language....Ugh! That just chaps my hide!

Ask Dr. Bob?...that's another thing that chaps my hide...I trust Dr. Bob...but I really hate having to rely on someone elses education, on faith that they are right. I would much rather come to this understanding because of my own discovery.

Is there a such thing as an original language traslated to English Bible? I thought that was what I had!

*disclaimer...I'm frustrated with the issue and myself....I'm not mad at anyone here. I know some people tend to take things that way...but don't, being limited to find things out on my own, just really makes me furious.

 

No, I think that he's saying the translation is wrong.

Perhaps to make the Bible say certain things? Either way, the fact is that the Greek word is still the same.

Because that list of qualifications is meant for men?

It is Greek, and one doesn't NEED to know Greek to understand the Bible. However, Greek is the original text, and the better we can understand that, the better we can understand the Bible. There is information that is other there, but I think everyone has access to it in some ways, from Bible commentaries to dictionaries to histories. For example, understanding the secular history behind Babylon makes certain parts of the Old Testament make a lot more sense. Understanding the animosity between the Jews and the Gentiles makes Acts come alive even more.

In the same way, understanding the Greek can aid in the understanding of certain passages.

 

Then you're saying that the Bible is wrong. </font>[/QUOTE]*** ABSOLUTELY NOT! ***

That’s because translators are not inerrant. Translators make judgment calls all the time when they come across words with multiple meanings. The English word “deacon” is a transliteration of a Greek word meaning “servant”. Apparently the translator(s) of your English translation of scripture made a judgment call to render the word “deacon” in one context and “servant” in another – probably in light of their opinion regarding women in ministry. I doubt it was malicious, but to some extent, every translation bears a measure of the biases of the translators.

Some of us understand that the passage directed to “the women, likewise…” (or often translated “the wives, likewise”) in 1 Timothy 3:11 should be understood as ‘requirements’ for female deacons.

Actually, it’s Greek in this instance…

Actually, the information is out there if you look for it. There are language helps written for people who do not know the original languages and there is a wealth of information out there by scholars who can help you with some of the more difficult issues and passages.

The reason I suggested Dr. Bob is that he does not agree with me (as far as I know) in regard to my interpretation of some of the key scriptures regarding women in ministry, but he is scrupulously honest about what the text actually says. That makes him an excellent resource for you because you can test what I say by the testimony and assistance of a trusted Christian brother.

Yep. I thoroughly understand that desire. Unfortunately for our pride God has fitted us together as the body of Christ. Each one of us has gifts, talents and opportunities. Some of us have had the privilege of going to seminary and earning degrees in theology. While we don’t always agree, we can help other members of the body of Christ (who are pursuing other equally important ministries) understand the scriptures.

That’s what you probably have, but translation is not simply a one-to-one, word-by-word process. Hebrew thought and syntax is radically different from Western languages and Greek (even the common, fractured Greek of the New Testament) is much more complex than English and therefore loses quite a bit of meaning in the translation.

I understand. Just remember that you aren’t as limited as you might think.

The best thing to do is take a big dose of humility and study up on issues yourself. Ask people you trust to help you make sense of issues. And pay attention to people who have ideas that may be radically different than your own. If there are a number of people saying a similar thing, they may know something you need to investigate.

I’ve found that I learn much more when I hear all the different sides of an issue and then study for myself to discover what I believe to be true.

My views of women in ministry came from about six years of discussion where I listened to everyone who had something to say on the issue. Frankly, most of the people I heard who were in favor of women in ministry made appeals to “fairness”, emotion or the century we were living in. I was not impressed. But I couldn’t go along with the “conservative” party line on women in ministry because all the ‘pieces’ did not fit. Obviously, Phoebe was a deacon, Junia appeared to be an apostle and Priscilla/Prisca taught Apollos with her husband Aquilla. Furthermore, women were instructed to have their heads covered when they prophesied, yet Paul seemed to say that he did not permit a woman to speak.

I struggled with the issue and came to a tentative conclusion about how to reconcile the issue in my mind, but in 1991 I came across a book by E. Earle Ellis called “Pauline Theology: Ministry and Society” that helped me put everything together in a much more consistent way. After reading his chapter entitled “Paul and the Eschatological Women”, I finally put all the pieces together in a way that made sense with the rest of the New Testament.

 

Thank You Scott. I'm sorry about the mix-up between Greek and Hebrew, I thought I got that from someone elses statement here. I have a bit of brain damage and it makes it difficult to keep things straight in my mind sometimes. I feel pretty foolish when I make mistakes so obvious. But perhaps God let me have brain damage to keep me humble.

 

Don't worry about it. I often think that God gave me the inability to remember when my library books and rented videos are due to keep me humble as well.

 

*** ABSOLUTELY NOT! ***
You're "absolutely not" contradicts a great deal of what you just said. If the Bible is wrong, then it's wrong. Whether that has to do with someone translating it incorrectly or not, your argument is that it's wrong. So, why change horses in mid stream?

Some of us understand that the passage directed to “the women, likewise…” (or often translated “the wives, likewise”) in 1 Timothy 3:11 should be understood as ‘requirements’ for female deacons.
I Timothy 3:11 says Even so, must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

These are requirements for Deacon's wives, not deacons.

Yep. I thoroughly understand that desire. Unfortunately for our pride

The best thing to do is take a big dose of humility and study up on issues yourself.

Ask people you trust to help you make sense of issues. And pay attention to people who have ideas that may be radically different than your own. If there are a number of people saying a similar thing, they may know something you need to investigate.

I’ve found that I learn much more when I hear all the different sides of an issue and then study for myself to discover what I believe to be true. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't want to learn for myself, instead of relying on someone else for my theology, because of pride, but accountability.

I said that I don't have a degree in theology. I didn't say I didn't know how to study. May I just state the obvious. What do you think I'm doing here? Practicing my typing?!

 

Are these all "Deacons" of the church since that is the underlying Greek word of each highlighted word? If so, then I can accept that Phebe is also an elected Deacon of a local church. Otherwise...uhhh...no.

Government Officials - Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God

Jesus - Rom 14:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision

Paul and Apollos - I Cor 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed

Paul et. al. - II Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament

Demons - II Cor 11:14...Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness

Paul - Eph 2:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God

Paul - Col 1:23...I Paul am made a minister

Timothy - I Thes 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God

Timothy - I Tim 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ

 

*** ABSOLUTELY NOT! ***</font>[/QUOTE]
You're "absolutely not" contradicts a great deal of what you just said.
</font>[/QUOTE]No it doesn’t.

We don’t seem to be communicating very well.

I am NOT saying the Bible is wrong. If you don’t understand anything else I say, you need to accept this point.

Nope. I am saying that the text of the scripture in the original language is completely trustworthy, but translations are imperfect renderings of the meaning of the original texts.

Scripture in original language = completely trustworthy
Translation of scripture in English (or any other language) = usually accurate, but all have flaws

I have not.

Apparently you have misread something I have written or I somehow miscommunicated.

Some of us understand that the passage directed to “the women, likewise…” (or often translated “the wives, likewise”) in 1 Timothy 3:11 should be understood as ‘requirements’ for female deacons.</font>[/QUOTE]I Timothy 3:11 says Even so, must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

These are requirements for Deacon's wives, not deacons. </font>[/QUOTE]I’m not sure what translation you are using, but that’s not the only way that verse in translated. For instance, in the New American Standard translation (a highly reputable translation), the verse is rendered:

1 Timothy 3:11 Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.

Context and interpretation help the translator determine whether the Greek word for “women” should be rendered as “women” or as “wives”.

Yep. I thoroughly understand that desire... </font>[/QUOTE]I don't want to learn for myself, instead of relying on someone else for my theology, because of pride, but accountability. </font>[/QUOTE]

I did not mean to offend… I meant to point out that theology must be worked out in the context of a community of faith – scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.

I did not intend to suggest that you didn’t know how to study. I’m afraid you’ve completely misunderstood the intent of my words.

No, I think we have been trying to have a discussion. Unfortunately, it has taken an unexpected and unfortunate turn for the worse.

 

So, you would say that Phoebe is a minister then?

 

Dear Baptist Beleiver,

Rather than rehash our discussion, I would just like to say that I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist, and it's my theology that the King Jame Version of the Bible has no flaws, it is inerant and the perfect preserved word of God. That would mean, that there aren't any flaws in the translation.

I hope that makes it a little clearer where I'm coming from.

To me, when someone says the interpretation was done wrong, it implies that my KJV is wrong. I never meant that you are implying that God's original words are wrong. But right is right, and wrong is wrong, and if one word is wrong, then the whole book and my theology about it's accuracy is pretty much thrown out the window.

I'll get there...just be patient with me. I have 28 years of study under my belt on the Bible. Thinking differently isn't something that is going to come in one day.

 

Ah… If you accept that premise that the KJV is inerrant, then my appeal to the original text would be offensive to your theology.

May I suggest that if you hold that position, you are holding the King James to be more accurate than the Hebrew and Greek texts upon which it is based.

To me, that sounds like a major theological problem.

Yes, I understand your dilemma. But may I suggest to you that if you come to the conclusion that the KJV may not be more accurate than every other translation, your faith should be in the Lord Jesus Christ who is the One who had saved you from your sins and given you new life – your KJV Bible has not done those things. If you have true faith in Christ, it will survive a shift in your view of the KJV.

Yeah, thinking in new ways in always tough. I’m in the midst of trying to figure out the best way to help our church do outreach to 20-somethings in Fort Worth.

Thanks!

 

There are a great number of us who can't believe that it is the 21st century and there are still Baptists who deny the plain text of Scripture. But you and some others have certainly enlightened us to that fact.

 

May I echo a sad AMEN?

 

Nope, I would say that Phebe serves the Lord and anyone who serves God would be a servant, deacon, minister, bondslave, follower, etc. There is a difference between performing certain tasks and being officially recognized, appointed, voted in, named into a position, etc. I can bus the dishes off of a dinner table without being the hired busboy. I can minister to people at my church without being THE Minister. Phebe was a deacon, but not a Deacon. We are all servants but, we are not all in the office of a Deacon.

 

Not only is the role of a woman as a deacon(ess) hotly contested, but also the meaning of "a husband of one wife." I am a divorced (based on infidelity of my spouse - scripturally permitted) and remarried ordained SBC deacon. The by-laws (not God's laws mind you!) of my current church do not permit divorced men to serve as deacons. When I joined, I accepted (that I could live with) those by-laws, but I do not consider this particular one to align with scripture.

The idea in 1 Tim 3:12, "Deacons must be husbands of only one wife . . ." (NASB) is that a deacon must be a "one-woman man!" This is a moral indictment and not a marital status statement. It means a deacon should not "have eyes for other women" among other things! He must be completely committed to his "one womam." If more churches taught this, maybe we wouldn't experience so many deacons falling into affairs and divorces!

 

This may or may not be true. The rest of the two verses points that she was, indeed, an elected deacon, or at the least one of the leaders of the church, leading over men (gasp!).

I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

The Greek word for succorer is prostasis, which literally means "one who stands before" and is used in the Greek to mean "champion, leader, chief, protector, patron." If we apply the translation from I Timothy 3:13 here (since the words come from the same root), then we read "for she has been a ruler of many, and of myself also."

Because of this, we do see that she was in some way a minister - if not an elected deacon, she was AT THE LEAST some type of church leader, who led men, including Paul. This flies in the face of conventional Baptist doctrine which states that women should not be ordained or be in a leadership position over men.