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Originally posted by WisdomSeeker:
The word used to describe Phoebe as a deacon (literally "servant") in the church is the same word that is translated "deacon" in the other passages you mention. The translator is the one who is making the distinction, not scripture itself.Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
[qb] I don't see where this passage supports your statement that she was a deacon.
If you won't take my word for it, ask Dr. Bob.
Examine the life of Priscilla and how she had leadership over Apollos. That in and of itself SHOULD be enough to change your mind.... but it probably won't.
Dear Joshua, I think your statement implies that people are behind this. I assure you as a woman I would love to find a scripture to support woman being in any office in the Bible, but I've looked and the Bible just doesn't support it.
Then you're saying that the Bible is wrong. Why would the word not be translated correctly in one place and correctly in others? Why would the office of deacon have the qualification of "Being the husband of one wife" if that were a lie? And why on earth would a person have to know Hebrew to understand the Bible? The idea that there is information out there that isn't available to anyone who doesn't have a Masters in theology or the Hebrew Language....Ugh! That just chaps my hide!
No, I think that he's saying the translation is wrong.
Perhaps to make the Bible say certain things? Either way, the fact is that the Greek word is still the same.
Because that list of qualifications is meant for men?
It is Greek, and one doesn't NEED to know Greek to understand the Bible. However, Greek is the original text, and the better we can understand that, the better we can understand the Bible. There is information that is other there, but I think everyone has access to it in some ways, from Bible commentaries to dictionaries to histories. For example, understanding the secular history behind Babylon makes certain parts of the Old Testament make a lot more sense. Understanding the animosity between the Jews and the Gentiles makes Acts come alive even more.
Then you're saying that the Bible is wrong. </font>[/QUOTE]*** ABSOLUTELY NOT! ***
That’s because translators are not inerrant. Translators make judgment calls all the time when they come across words with multiple meanings. The English word “deacon” is a transliteration of a Greek word meaning “servant”. Apparently the translator(s) of your English translation of scripture made a judgment call to render the word “deacon” in one context and “servant” in another – probably in light of their opinion regarding women in ministry. I doubt it was malicious, but to some extent, every translation bears a measure of the biases of the translators.
Some of us understand that the passage directed to “the women, likewise…” (or often translated “the wives, likewise”) in 1 Timothy 3:11 should be understood as ‘requirements’ for female deacons.
Actually, it’s Greek in this instance…
Actually, the information is out there if you look for it. There are language helps written for people who do not know the original languages and there is a wealth of information out there by scholars who can help you with some of the more difficult issues and passages.
The reason I suggested Dr. Bob is that he does not agree with me (as far as I know) in regard to my interpretation of some of the key scriptures regarding women in ministry, but he is scrupulously honest about what the text actually says.
That makes him an excellent resource for you because you can test what I say by the testimony and assistance of a trusted Christian brother.Yep. I thoroughly understand that desire. Unfortunately for our pride
God has fitted us together as the body of Christ. Each one of us has gifts, talents and opportunities. Some of us have had the privilege of going to seminary and earning degrees in theology. While we don’t always agree, we can help other members of the body of Christ (who are pursuing other equally important ministries) understand the scriptures.That’s what you probably have, but translation is not simply a one-to-one, word-by-word process. Hebrew thought and syntax is radically different from Western languages and Greek (even the common, fractured Greek of the New Testament) is much more complex than English and therefore loses quite a bit of meaning in the translation.
I understand.
Just remember that you aren’t as limited as you might think. I was not impressed. But I couldn’t go along with the “conservative” party line on women in ministry because all the ‘pieces’ did not fit. Obviously, Phoebe was a deacon, Junia appeared to be an apostle and Priscilla/Prisca taught Apollos with her husband Aquilla. Furthermore, women were instructed to have their heads covered when they prophesied, yet Paul seemed to say that he did not permit a woman to speak.
Don't worry about it. I often think that God gave me the inability to remember when my library books and rented videos are due to keep me humble as well.
*** ABSOLUTELY NOT! ***
Some of us understand that the passage directed to “the women, likewise…” (or often translated “the wives, likewise”) in 1 Timothy 3:11 should be understood as ‘requirements’ for female deacons.
Yep. I thoroughly understand that desire. Unfortunately for our pride
*** ABSOLUTELY NOT! ***</font>[/QUOTE]
I am NOT saying the Bible is wrong. If you don’t understand anything else I say, you need to accept this point.
Nope. I am saying that the text of the scripture in the original language is completely trustworthy, but translations are imperfect renderings of the meaning of the original texts.
I have not.
Some of us understand that the passage directed to “the women, likewise…” (or often translated “the wives, likewise”) in 1 Timothy 3:11 should be understood as ‘requirements’ for female deacons.</font>[/QUOTE]I Timothy 3:11 says Even so, must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Yep. I thoroughly understand that desire... </font>[/QUOTE]I don't want to learn for myself, instead of relying on someone else for my theology, because of pride, but accountability. </font>[/QUOTE]
I did not intend to suggest that you didn’t know how to study.
I’m afraid you’ve completely misunderstood the intent of my words.No, I think we have been trying to have a discussion. Unfortunately, it has taken an unexpected and unfortunate turn for the worse.May I just state the obvious. What do you think I'm doing here? Practicing my typing?!
So, you would say that Phoebe is a minister then?
Ah… If you accept that premise that the KJV is inerrant, then my appeal to the original text would be offensive to your theology.
Yes, I understand your dilemma. But may I suggest to you that if you come to the conclusion that the KJV may not be more accurate than every other translation, your faith should be in the Lord Jesus Christ who is the One who had saved you from your sins and given you new life – your KJV Bible has not done those things. If you have true faith in Christ, it will survive a shift in your view of the KJV.
Yeah, thinking in new ways in always tough. I’m in the midst of trying to figure out the best way to help our church do outreach to 20-somethings in Fort Worth.
There are a great number of us who can't believe that it is the 21st century and there are still Baptists who deny the plain text of Scripture. But you and some others have certainly enlightened us to that fact.
May I echo a sad AMEN?
Nope, I would say that Phebe serves the Lord and anyone who serves God would be a servant, deacon, minister, bondslave, follower, etc. There is a difference between performing certain tasks and being officially recognized, appointed, voted in, named into a position, etc. I can bus the dishes off of a dinner table without being the hired busboy. I can minister to people at my church without being THE Minister. Phebe was a deacon, but not a Deacon. We are all servants but, we are not all in the office of a Deacon.
This may or may not be true. The rest of the two verses points that she was, indeed, an elected deacon, or at the least one of the leaders of the church, leading over men (gasp!).
