Biden DOJ Attempts To Stop Arizona Election Audit

[JonC]

The first-century Jews wanted to overthrow the Roman government in order to re-establish "their own theocracy." I hope you are not accusing me of intending such a notion, because I expressly state otherwise. As I said, I don't even think a Christian party is the way to go.

FTR, I do not believe the Church should be political per se. However, she cannot help but be political when she speaks the truth of God's word, as God's word inevitably conflicts with some manmade laws, or rather some manmade laws conflict with God's word.

One would have to show me that God does not operate within earthly governments for me to think Christians should not be involved. I will say that, if we did not have the US Constitution, I might not advocate Christian involvement in government in quite the same way.

Bottom line, the Church has no place forbidding or even criticizing a Christian holding political office or being involved in politics, unless that Christian is doing something contrary to the Gospel. There is nothing in the Gospel forbidding it. The only exception would be those called to fulltime ministry. The rest of us are necessarily "involved in civilian affairs."

No accusations at all.

I am saying that your post takes on the same error. The church was not involved in government transformation until the RCC. Jesus was not involved in government transformation.

We have one ministry - the ministry of reconciliation- pleading that men - not governments- be reconciled to God. Governments can only be changed by transforming people.

 

[percho]

@Revmitchell ,
Perhaps you have not realized Pelosi has done the same thing (so has Biden).

Do you have an example of Trump preaching Christ (not relating the Christmas or Easter narrative, not using Jesus' name but actually preaching Christ).

If this is your example of preaching Christ then why the hypocrisy when dealing with others like Joel Osteen and Pelosi when they do the same.

Would you post those from Biden and Pelosi?

 

[Mikoo]

SBG is a brethren from England. He can’t vote in US elections, he can only throw stones across the pond at us who do.

Welcome to BB

peace to you

Gotcha! I just see a lot posts about Trump. Absolutely not a perfect man, but neither is Biden. Our command as believers is to pray for our leaders, I wonder if those that only have negative things to write about Trump also prayed sincerely for him or not at all. If only a ‘sinless’ person ran for president then our duty as citizens would be much easier.

Thanks for the welcome! Peace to you also.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

No accusations at all.

I am saying that your post takes on the same error. The church was not involved in government transformation until the RCC. Jesus was not involved in government transformation.

We have one ministry - the ministry of reconciliation- pleading that men - not governments- be reconciled to God. Governments can only be changed by transforming people.

And I repeat that the Church should NOT be involved in government per se. That would be a grave mistake, an error not found in my posts.

However, individual Christians should be found throughout society spreading the Gospel and both speaking and acting out God's truth. And that includes holding government positions and holding government accountable. Governments can be and are changed by transformed people, aka Christians, both from without and from within.

Again, individual Christians may be called to all manner of useful vocations, political positions should not be excluded from the list.

Also, government should not be enlisted to do the work of the Church. That is a grave error as well. The government is not called to preach or spread the Gospel, but just as certainly it is not to interfere with these either.

 

[canadyjd]

Pelosi on Christ - " ‘The Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us.’ And that’s the great mystery of our faith. He will come again. He will come again. So, we have to make sure we’re prepared to answer in this life, or otherwise, as to how we have measured up.”

Sorry, I missed the link.

peace to you

 

[percho]

The first-century Jews wanted to overthrow the Roman government in order to re-establish "their own theocracy." I hope you are not accusing me of intending such a notion, because I expressly state otherwise. As I said, I don't even think a Christian party is the way to go.

FTR, I do not believe the Church should be political per se. However, she cannot help but be political when she speaks the truth of God's word, as God's word inevitably conflicts with some manmade laws, or rather some manmade laws conflict with God's word.

One would have to show me that God does not operate within earthly governments for me to think Christians should not be involved. I will say that, if we did not have the US Constitution, I might not advocate Christian involvement in government in quite the same way.

Bottom line, the Church has no place forbidding or even criticizing a Christian holding political office or being involved in politics, unless that Christian is doing something contrary to the Gospel. There is nothing in the Gospel forbidding it. The only exception would be those called to fulltime ministry. The rest of us are necessarily "involved in civilian affairs."

I believe the total of the word of God is the contrast of government.

The government of God vs the government of men initiated through the deception brought forth by that old serpent call Satan and the devil. Adam choose for man to govern spiritually influenced and deceived by the deceiver. IMHO it will be that way until;

Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Dan 2:34

BTW that did not happen in 70 AD IMHO.

For the earnest expectation of the creation <Gen 2:1-3) eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation <Gen 2:1-3) was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation <Gen 2:1-3) itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Those sons of God will be ruling with that stone cut out without hands.

Consider that above and see how it sheds light upon all the word of God. It was foreordained before the foundation of the world.

What has taken place, was before time began, going to take place.

.

 

[percho]

And I repeat that the Church should NOT be involved in government per se. That would be a grave mistake, an error not found in my posts.

However, individual Christians should be found throughout society spreading the Gospel and both speaking and acting out God's truth. And that includes holding government positions and holding government accountable. Governments can be and are changed by transformed people, aka Christians, both from without and from within.

Again, individual Christians may be called to all manner of useful vocations, political positions should not be excluded from the list.

Also, government should not be enlisted to do the work of the Church. That is a grave error as well. The government is not called to preach or spread the Gospel, but just as certainly it is not to interfere with these either.

I like and agree with this post. I do not believe it is the job of the church to change the world of this country at this time. I do think we should pray for our leaders to seek wisdom from the Lord from local to worldwide even though I do not think they will at this time. I also believe the church should consider the answer to:

Lord teach us to pray.

 

[JonC]

Would you post those from Biden and Pelosi?

Pelosi on Christ - " ‘The Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us.’ And that’s the great mystery of our faith. He will come again. He will come again. So, we have to make sure we’re prepared to answer in this life, or otherwise, as to how we have measured up.”

 

[Aaron]

No. You posted a very foolish thing. Now you are trying (as usual) to hide in the smoke you create.

We all know you, Aaron. You act like a child but you are not new to this forum.

Yes. I can only aspire to your level of maturity and virtue.

 

[JonC]

And I repeat that the Church should NOT be involved in government per se. That would be a grave mistake, an error not found in my posts.

However, individual Christians should be found throughout society spreading the Gospel and both speaking and acting out God's truth. And that includes holding government positions and holding government accountable. Governments can be and are changed by transformed people, aka Christians, both from without and from within.

Again, individual Christians may be called to all manner of useful vocations, political positions should not be excluded from the list.

Also, government should not be enlisted to do the work of the Church. That is a grave error as well. The government is not called to preach or spread the Gospel, but just as certainly it is not to interfere with these either.

I agree the Church should not be involved in government.

Perhaps we define the church differently?

 

[JonC]

Yes. I can only aspire to your level of maturity and virtue.

You can. Stay in the Word, study, pray AND live out the gospel of Jesus Christ. Don't be down on yourself. Maturity takes time, brother. Virtue is a concious effort to be obedient to Christ.

 

[Aaron]

You can. Stay in the Word, study, pray AND live out the gospel of Jesus Christ. Don't be down on yourself. Maturity takes time, brother. Virtue is a concious effort to be obedient to Christ.

Oh man. You were so close!

Virtue is a quality, not a behavior.

In practically everything, you are almost there. You're all around the mark, but you seldom if ever seem to hit it. Like your wrathless cross insistence. And I observe it mostly with your statements about the Gospel, and it spills over into your civics. I never understood what it meant to be ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth, but I think I'm seeing that play out.

I have a new nickname for you: Almost There.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, they are both equally opposed to God. A Reoublucan atheist is just as opposed to God as is an atheist Democrat. An anti-gay atheist is just as opposed to God as is a pro-gay atheist.

The World is opposed to God (despite your objection).

I was going to let this go, but I need to clarify something for the lurkers. The following is not a true statement.

Republican atheist is just as opposed to God as is an atheist Democrat. An anti-gay atheist is just as opposed to God as is a pro-gay atheist.
​

This confuses the law and grace. It's a common mistake. People tend to think that because we are under grace, there is no more law in the earth. But that is a deadly mistake to make. There is law in the earth, and the nations of the earth are dealt with according to their adherence thereto. Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law. Until the day of judgment, people will be marrying and giving in marriage, as in the days of Noah till the rains came.

Marriage is a matter of law, as it is written, Thou shalt not commit adultery.

So there is law in the earth. Grace, though, is in heaven. And it's according to the Righteousness of God, not the law (righteousness doesn't come by the law), that people will be judged. One will either be clothed in the righteousness of God, or not. Good or evil. Whole or corrupt.

But that doesn't apply on earth. In earth there is a righteousness which is of the law, described by Moses, that the man which doeth those things shall live by them--in the earth, that is. This principle is in the Decalogue itself, in the first commandment with promise, Honour thy father and mother that it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. That isn't a promise to believers only.

That is the righteousness that exalts a nation, Proverbs 14:34 , and to the degree that a nation (or individual in the earth) is faithful to that law, he is righteous, regardless of his faith.

To say that there is no difference in righteousness between a party that blesses marriage and the church, and one that curses them, is about as unbiblical an assertion, and thereby as unchristian, as one can get.

"They're all the same!"

It's a common copout, usually uttered to cuck one's critics, if not uttered in ignorance or sloth. It's uttered almost as much to appear to take a middle-of-the-road approach in an attempt to insulate one's self from criticism from either side, or to pacify the defenders of truth so that one's more liberal agendas may advance.

 

[JonC]

Oh man. You were so close!

Virtue is a quality, not a behavior.

In practically everything, you are almost there. You're all around the mark, but you seldom if ever seem to hit it. Like your wrathless cross insistence. And I observe it mostly with your statements about the Gospel, and it spills over into your civics. I never understood what it meant to be ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth, but I think I'm seeing that play out.

I have a new nickname for you: Almost There.

Here you go again, false accusations about other people's views.

Now you pretend I hold a "wrathless cross" view (something I have argued against for years with Weaver's theory of the cross) simply because I do not confirm your theory of atonement.

You are a very confused and dishonest woman or man. You have been dishonest so many times about me and other members that it is impossible it be merely ignorance.

You always misrepresent other people's views when they disagree with you. It has become obvious that you do this intentionally. You have consistently done this with politics and with theological views. It is not only dishonest but it is sinful.

 

[JonC]

[

I was going to let this go, but I need to clarify something for the lurkers. The following is not a true statement.

Republican atheist is just as opposed to God as is an atheist Democrat. An anti-gay atheist is just as opposed to God as is a pro-gay atheist.
​

This confuses the law and grace. It's a common mistake. People tend to think that because we are under grace, there is no more law in the earth. But that is a deadly mistake to make. There is law in the earth, and the nations of the earth are dealt with according to their adherence thereto. Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law. Until the day of judgment, people will be marrying and giving in marriage, as in the days of Noah till the rains came.

Marriage is a matter of law, as it is written, Thou shalt not commit adultery.

So there is law in the earth. Grace, though, is in heaven. And it's according to the Righteousness of God, not the law (righteousness doesn't come by the law), that people will be judged. One will either be clothed in the righteousness of God, or not. Good or evil. Whole or corrupt.

But that doesn't apply on earth. In earth there is a righteousness which is of the law, described by Moses, that the man which doeth those things shall live by them--in the earth, that is. This principle is in the Decalogue itself, in the first commandment with promise, Honour thy father and mother that it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. That isn't a promise to believers only.

That is the righteousness that exalts a nation, Proverbs 14:34 , and to the degree that a nation (or individual in the earth) is faithful to that law, he is righteous, regardless of his faith.

To say that there is no difference in righteousness between a party that blesses marriage and the church, and one that curses them, is about as unbiblical an assertion, and thereby as unchristian, as one can get.

"They're all the same!"

It's a common copout, usually uttered to cuck one's critics, if not uttered in ignorance or sloth. It's uttered almost as much to appear to take a middle-of-the-road approach in an attempt to insulate one's self from criticism from either side, or to pacify the defenders of truth so that one's more liberal agendas may advance.

You can. Stay in the Word, study, pray AND live out the gospel of Jesus Christ. Don't be down on yourself. Maturity takes time, brother. Virtue is a concious effort to be obedient to Christ.[/QUOTE]You are wrong. There are none righteous, not even your precious GOP. Righteousness is only in Christ. The World is equally the World. Salvation is in Chrust alone (not Christ and Trump).

It goes beyond words and actions. "Morality" without Christ is unrighteousness.

Read your Bible, Aaron.

 

[Scott Downey]

Catholic church has a dominionist view of this world, as do some protestants. They believe we are living in the millennial reign of Christ right now, and the church must take dominion over and rule this world.

A protestant pastor I know teaches Christ can not return until the church has converted the entire world, as in literally Christianized it, so that there exists no other false religions, they then hand over a perfected Christianized world to Christ who can then return to rule the kingdom. He is on the record about this, and that the church has failed and is lazy and that is why Christ can not return. He was also teaching the youth they will be kings and rulers over this world. That there is no coming antichrist as Nero was the antichrist, revelation is past was for the first century only, this earth and heaven is eternal, no ending in sudden destruction for the world, that we are right now living in the new heavens and new earth Peter teaches about. He confided to me he could not imagine all the great cities and technologies of man being destroyed in a fiery destruction, so preferred to believe something else, so it seem to me he is in love with the earth, technology, etc...He is another flavor of dominionist. Nothing I said made him change his mind.

 

[Aaron]

Here you go again, false accusations about other people's views.

...said the blind man.

Anyway, here's a thought: if you don't like interacting with me, refrain from tagging me in your posts.

 

[JonC]

...said the blind man.

Anyway, here's a thought: if you don't like interacting with me, refrain from tagging me in your posts.

I do not mind interacting with you. I think you could offer legitimate arguments if you were not content to play the fool.

You provide entertainment on one hand and a moral lesson to others about acknowledging Christ with your lips while denying Him with your dishonesty on the other..

Think about how many times you have been dishonest with my posts (with GOP vs DNC, about Trump, about Biden, about the Atonement). Now consider I am just one of many with whom you have responded dishonestly.

Other than posting an OP, I do not know of a legitimate argument you have made the entire time you have been here. You just post something and then misrepresent opposing responses.

Dishonesty is to you a character trait, and it is sad because you are a professing Christian who seems to take pleasure in "sinning with a high hand".

 

[Aaron]

I do not mind interacting with you. I think you could offer legitimate arguments if you were not content to play the fool.

You provide entertainment on one hand and a moral lesson to others about acknowledging Christ with your lips while denying Him with your dishonesty on the other..

Think about how many times you have been dishonest with my posts (with GOP vs DNC, about Trump, about Biden, about the Atonement). Now consider I am just one of many with whom you have responded dishonestly.

Other than posting an OP, I do not know of a legitimate argument you have made the entire time you have been here. You just post something and then misrepresent opposing responses.

Dishonesty is to you a character trait, and it is sad because you are a professing Christian who seems to take pleasure in "sinning with a high hand".

You doth protest too much, methinks.

But, if you wish, pick a theological point--just one--that I've been dishonest or erroneous about, and we'll hash it out. Interminable posts about generalities are a tedium in which I don't wish to engage for long.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I agree the Church should not be involved in government.

Perhaps we define the church differently?

Maybe. Or perhaps we have a different understanding of her being involved in something. Or both.