Originally posted by Gup20:
The God you believe in doesn't exist. You believe God uses death and struggle to create something good - that before there was sin there was death.
Before humans sinned there was plant death and animal death. Human death and separation from God came about due to human sinfulness. While human sinfulness has affected all of creation, death as a result of sin only spread to those who are in Adam (see Romans 5:12-21). Animals are not in Adam the way humans are in Adam. In no verse in the Bible is it stated that animal death started as a result of human sin. Romans 5 clearly talks about human death and not animal death. To distort this passage to refer to animal death makes a mockery of Jesus' crucifixion by applying it to beasts the same way it applies to humans.
Romans 5:18-19:
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
If you are right, Gup, and the one trespass led to death for animals, that would mean that Jesus' act of righteousness leads to justification and life for animals. Are animals justified? Can animals be called sinners or righteous? My interpretation is that when Paul writes about "all men" and "the many" he is not speaking about animals or plants. He is referring to human beings, both male and female. Adam's trespass led to death for humans by making them sinners, and Jesus' act of righteousness leads to justification and life for humans by making them righteous.
Many other verses make it clear that animal death is not inherently evil the way human death is, as we have discussed (and you have [
ignored]) before.
The Bible says DONT EVEN SAY that God is behind it when evil comes knocking at your door - flat out God doesn't use evil to promote his will in the earth. If you want to worship a God who does use evil to fulfill his purposes, then go ahead, but know that you won't be worshipping the God of the Bible.
The problem is that you have not yet shown that biblically animal death is evil. The Bible itself calls animal death including predation "good". God provides food for carnivorous animals and calls it one of the "good things" from his hand (Psalm 104:21-28); God points to the hawk and eagle whose young "suck up blood" as an example of the wonders of his creative power (Job 39:26-30); Paul makes clear to Timothy that foods that some are saying should not be eaten (such as meats, as parallel passages show) are to be received with gladness because they were created to be eaten (1 Timothy 4:1-6).
If your view is correct, then when God asks this rhetorical question of Job:
Job 38:41:
Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?
...the answer is Satan!
Based on this, another verse comes to mind, from a passage talking about eating meat and drinking wine:
Romans 14:16:
So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil.
You are definitely calling evil what I regard as good. Far more serious, you are calling evil what
God regards as good. You are attributing to Satan the creative work that God claims as his own doing.
Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
We see, then, that the devil is the one who deals in death - not God.
Once again, you take a sentence fragment from a passage clearly talking about
humans and applying it to
animals as well. Are you willing to do the same thing with the rest of the passage or even the rest of the sentence?
Hebrews 2:14-16:
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
Jesus' death destroyed the one who has the power of death and it delivered "all those" subject to the curse of death. Does this include animals? Angels? No, the next verse clarifies that these are "offspring of Abraham". Elsewhere, Jesus clarifies who the offspring of Abraham are (see John 8:31-47). We as Christians are adopted offspring of Abraham. Animals are not in any way offspring of Abraham.
Now, if the verse were to read as you claim, and the "power of death" refers to both animal and human death, then this passage only talks about a partial victory. Jesus only delivered the "offspring of Abraham", not all the animals too. But if you read the passage properly, it is obvious that the "power of death" refers to its power over human sinners, because it claims that Jesus was completely victorious over it by providing deliverance for "all those" subject to it.
The Bible is pretty clear that God is not the author, nor deliverer of death. It is separation from God that causes death - both physically and spiritually.
What Scripture says about all the creatures God created:
Psalm 104:29-30:
When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their breath, they die and return to their dust. When you send forth your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.
While this jibes with what you said about separation from God causing death, the psalmist does not distance God from animal death the way you have tried to do. It does not appear to be morally abhorrent to God the way it is to you. I encourage you to allow Scripture to alter your thinking on this issue.
