Bill Clinton goes on tirade against pro-life students

[tinytim]

No, when God breathed INTO man....
Man couldn't draw a breath yet...

What it boils down to is an argument over a few weeks period...
And since a woman doesn't know she is pregnant until she misses her cycle, 3 weeks or more has already disappeared...

So by the time she knows she is pregnant, your conditions for a human would already have been met...

And BTW, a couple yrs ago, my wife and I offered to adopt a baby that the mother was going to abort, but when she realized that someone else wanted it, she decided to not have the abortion... and kept it.

So, I am willing to put into actions my beliefs...

But just so you know.. I agree with you... if pro lifers would get more proactive, and would show they actually care, many abortions would never happen.

Obviously, I believe that the soul is present at conception... for if the mass of cells are extracted at that time, they die... and in order for something to die, it first has to be alive. And if it is alive, with human DNA, it has a soul.

With cloning coming down the pike, we are going to have more of these type of discussions...

 

[sag38]

Whether no one offered to adopt unwanted babies has no bearing on the fundamental argument. That's just a smoke screen used to justify murder. If we are going to use that argument then why don't we start killing off the useless old folks in the nursing homes. Let's kill of the terminally ill. Let's kill of all the mentally challenged. After all they are a drain on society. And, people arent' lining up to take care of them either. Kill em' all and let's save society the responsiblilty of taking care of them.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

This thread clearly demonstrates why it is difficult to have a reasoned discussion. People resort to invectives and name calling (e.g. depraved & selfish) rather than debate facts.

Sag, you miss the point. If you are really concerned, you can save the unborn by adopting. No smokescreen there. Nothing to keep you from doing that while lobbying for change.

Tim, while I sense it is emotion talking, execution would have many unintended consequences (not to mention how horrific that is). If one day one of your son gets a girl pregnant and they are so ashamed to tell you that they get an abortion, are you willing to see him executed as an accessory?

Now this part is my own opinion, but I think the real reason some Christians are so extreme about this has nothing at all to do with sanctity of life. Rather, some are so anti-sex that they want to force a term pregancy as a kind of punishment for a person having crossed their boundary of acceptable sexual behavior.

 

[Andy T.]

This thread clearly demonstrates why it is difficult to have a reasoned discussion. People resort to invectives and name calling (e.g. depraved & selfish) rather than debate facts.

FWIW, I never called you a name. I referred to your worldview as depraved and unbiblical. And it is.

Now this part is my own opinion, but I think the real reason some Christians are so extreme about this has nothing at all to do with sanctity of life. Rather, some are so anti-sex that they want to force a term pregancy as a kind of punishment for a person having crossed their boundary of acceptable sexual behavior.

You tip your hand here. You're implying that to be against premarital sex is an outdated opinion based nothing on biblical truth. The fact is, premarital sex is unequivocally wrong according to God as revealed in His Word. This is yet another area where your worldview is depraved and unbiblical.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Nice strawman you built there, Andy!

 

[Palatka51]

Tim, I have gone over this many times, but I will do it once more for your sake. My position is that there is a big difference between aborting a late term fetus and an early term blastocyst. The blastocyst has none of the attributes of being human that you and I have...no nervous, respiratory, circulatory, reproductive, lymphatic or other systems that make a sentient being. It is a mass of undifferentiated cells, whose removal is no worse than the egg expelled every month by every woman, or the sperm cells that are shed by the billions.

MP, think about what you jest said. I don't think even you believe this. At one time all of us were in this stage of development. If our mothers had aborted this "blastocyst" neither of us would be on this board debating this subject.

I do not believe that a human being is present at conception, but develops over the term of gestation, and a case can be made that this is within the first trimester. But within days of conception? No.

The sperm of itself dies without the egg and likewise the egg without the sperm. At the very moment of sperm to egg contact, development began, I became me and you became you. I fact it is already exhibiting the characteristics of an individual. The first act of development is to protect yourself from outside influence that might interfere with normal development. Almost instantly it hardens to keep out other sperm from penetration. I would not be here nor you if at that moment we were cast from our mother's womb.

It is also easy to use inflamatory language that is unsupported by any facts.

You are right here. It gets frustrating very quickly when a reasoned person will not stand to protect life.

I also realize my views on this are not the majority opinion of those on this board. However, they do appear in line with majority opinion in the country, which is why, despite the rhetoric, neither party is serious about changing the law. Vote for the GOP all you want...they have never acted to change things, even when in control of the Executive and Legislative branches.

If the Dems would put up a candidate that supported life (not just in word but also by record) they would win by a landslide.

 

[Andy T.]

MP, how else are we to take what you say here?

having crossed their boundary of acceptable sexual behavior.

What you are implying is that one's belief against premarital sex is simply "their boundary." No, it is not. It is God's boundary.

No strawman - just taking you at your word.

 

[tinytim]

Tim, while I sense it is emotion talking, execution would have many unintended consequences (not to mention how horrific that is). If one day one of your son gets a girl pregnant and they are so ashamed to tell you that they get an abortion, are you willing to see him executed as an accessory?

.

I would be for the execution of my son for being an accessory to an abortion as I would if he were an accessory to murdering a baby 1 day old.

I don't pull punches here, even for family.

And I am one of the least judgmental people when it comes to premarital pregnancies.... I try to help the girl, and will even try to reconcile the girl to the congregation as much as I can... besides, my wife loves babies, and she helps too.

Yes premarital sex is wrong, but the baby is not a punishment.. .that is what prochoice advocates say... The baby is still a miracle. It is a new life, and doesn't deserve to die just because mom and dad messed up...

Sometimes I find myself being the first to forgive others when other Christians won't...
But forgiveness doesn't wipe away responsibilities or consequences...
And alcoholic can be forgiven, but die from liver disease..
A man on death row can be forgiven, but still be executed...


So, your strawman hasn't got a leg to stand on...

 

[sag38]

All these moral arguments that supposedly justify abortion. It's wrong period. End of argument. Why do we debate those things which are clearly a violation of God's Holy word? The fact that "Christians" are even having to debate the merits of killing an unborn child is beyond me.

 

[Palatka51]

I would be for the execution of my son for being an accessory to an abortion as I would if he were an accessory to murdering a baby 1 day old.

I don't pull punches here, even for family.

And I am one of the least judgmental people when it comes to premarital pregnancies.... I try to help the girl, and will even try to reconcile the girl to the congregation as much as I can... besides, my wife loves babies, and she helps too.

Yes premarital sex is wrong, but the baby is not a punishment.. .that is what prochoice advocates say... The baby is still a miracle. It is a new life, and doesn't deserve to die just because mom and dad messed up...

Sometimes I find myself being the first to forgive others when other Christians won't...
But forgiveness doesn't wipe away responsibilities or consequences...
And alcoholic can be forgiven, but die from liver disease..
A man on death row can be forgiven, but still be executed...


So, your strawman hasn't got a leg to stand on...

Amen brother, amen.

 

[Palatka51]

All these moral arguments that supposedly justify abortion. It's wrong period. End of argument. Why do we debate those things which are clearly a violation of God's Holy word? The fact that "Christians" are even having to debate the merits of killing an unborn child is beyond me.

Mind boggling, isn't it?

 

[The Scribe]

This thread clearly demonstrates why it is difficult to have a reasoned discussion. People resort to invectives and name calling (e.g. depraved & selfish) rather than debate facts.

It demonstrates that your views are from secularism. I haven't seen anyone call you anything that Jesus himself wouldn't call you.

John 8:39-47 (KJV)
39: They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40: But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41: Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42: Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43: Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45: And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46: Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47: He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Now this part is my own opinion, but I think the real reason some Christians are so extreme about this has nothing at all to do with sanctity of life. Rather, some are so anti-sex that they want to force a term pregancy as a kind of punishment for a person having crossed their boundary of acceptable sexual behavior.

It has everything to do with the sanctity of life. Christians should be anti-premarital sex, as God is and the scriptures clearly say it is a sin.

FWIW, I never called you a name. I referred to your worldview as depraved and unbiblical. And it is.

He's arguing from a secularist viewpoint, which is unbiblical.

You tip your hand here. You're implying that to be against premarital sex is an outdated opinion based nothing on biblical truth. The fact is, premarital sex is unequivocally wrong according to God as revealed in His Word. This is yet another area where your worldview is depraved and unbiblical.

Anyone that says being anti-premarital sex is outdated they are a liar and the truth is not in them. The scriptures say premarital sex is a sin and fornicators will not enter into Heaven.

All these moral arguments that supposedly justify abortion. It's wrong period. End of argument. Why do we debate those things which are clearly a violation of God's Holy word? The fact that "Christians" are even having to debate the merits of killing an unborn child is beyond me.

I don't see why anyone who claims to be a Christian would argue for abortion or for premarital sex, they are both sins. Abortion is cold-blooded murder.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Tim, first you should learn what a strawman is. Andy gave us a good example...set up an argument NOT made by someone and attack that rather than what they actually said. I asked you a hypothetical question.

Secondly, I think your big talk would change if the situation actually occurred. I doubt you would e clammoring for your son's execution even if he killed a clerk at 7-11 during a robbery. So' while you are trying for logical consistency...sorry, but I don't believe you would react that way.

An finally, there is no Bible verse that says life starts at conception...only that we are in-utero before birth, becoming a person at some point in gestation. Some interpret cetain passages through such a filter, but just isn't there.

 

[The Scribe]

Tim, first you should learn what a strawman is.

Strawman
noun
1. a person used as a cover for some questionable activity [syn: front man]
2. a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted [syn: straw man]

So, I guess you, Obama, the Clintons and so on, would be strawmen.

An finally, there is no Bible verse that says life starts at conception...only that we are in-utero before birth, becoming a person at some point in gestation. Some interpret cetain passages through such a filter, but just isn't there.

God knew us even before we were formed in the womb.

Isiah 44:24-25 (KJV)
24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
25: That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)
5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

[Andy T.]

Andy gave us a good example...set up an argument NOT made by someone and attack that rather than what they actually said.

You said that someone being against premarital sex was "their boundary" as if it was simply a personal opinion. No, it is not "their boundary" - it is God's boundary. Do you agree that premarital sex is wrong in the eyes of God or not? I only have a statement from you that disparaged people who think premarital sex is wrong, which indicates to me that you think premarital sex is not wrong. I am making a reasonable assumption based on your prior statements. If you come out and say that premarital sex is wrong according to God as revealed in His word, then I will drop the argument and will assume that you disparaged yourself as well in that previous post.

 

[StefanM]

God knew us even before we were formed in the womb.

Isiah 44:24-25 (KJV)
24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
25: That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)
5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

While God knew us, that doesn't define personhood. God knew us before the foundation of the world, too, but it doesn't follow that we were persons before the foundation of the world.

I don't oppose abortion based on personhood. I oppose it based on life. Humans simply do not have the authority to choose to end human life, no matter the form or definition of personhood.

I exclude capital punishment (which I do not fully support because I feel that our system unfairly applies it, not because of the punishment itself) because God did delegate authority (for NT example, Rom. 13). I also exclude war and self-defense for similar reasons.

 

[The Scribe]

While God knew us, that doesn't define personhood. God knew us before the foundation of the world, too, but it doesn't follow that we were persons before the foundation of the world.

Life is in the egg. So, life is already in the womb.

That's why I'm against stem cells and destroying the egg.

 

[Palatka51]

While God knew us, that doesn't define personhood. God knew us before the foundation of the world, too, but it doesn't follow that we were persons before the foundation of the world.

This verse clearly defines "personhood."
Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)
5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
"Thee" is clearly in reference to the personage of Jeremiah.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Andy, now you are just plain fibbing. Please quote me where I said anything at all about premarital sex, for or against.

 

[Andy T.]

Andy, now you are just plain fibbing. Please quote me where I said anything at all about premarital sex, for or against.

I refer to your post #63 where you disparage those who think premarital sex is not acceptable sexual behavior, that they are "anti-sex" and that such opinion is merely "their boundary." How else am I supposed to interpret that? Please clarify.