Birth Before Belief

[1689Dave]

Just because you add "self-righteous" in front of "decision" doesn't make it so. Further you cannot show me in scripture where a decision for God equals self-righteousness. Honestly the whole thing is a silly notion.

If salvation is conditional, it is not of Grace. You turn it into law when you make it conditional. And self-righteousness results in those who approach it this way.

 

[1689Dave]

You haven't yet addressed my point that the things the natural man cannot comprehend are the deep things of the spirit and not the gospel. You haven't batted around anything, except strawmen.



My interpretation is right from Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

The gospel is the "power of God". I'm not lessening his glory one iota by saying the Holy Spirit enables men to understand it.

You must take it all or none of it. Paul says the natural man cannot discern spiritual truth. And the Gospel is exactly that. Spiritual truth. Now you can hose it down into a law even Al Capone can keep. But he'll never discern the true Christ apart from the new birth. Many Jews worshipped Satan thinking their idea of YHWH was on target.

 

[Yeshua1]

You must take it all or none of it. Paul says the natural man cannot discern spiritual truth. And the Gospel is exactly that. Spiritual truth. Now you can hose it down into a law even Al Capone can keep. But he'll never discern the true Christ apart from the new birth. Many Jews worshipped Satan thinking their idea of YHWH was on target.

The lost Jews who still read and know the OT know the real Yahweh, as scriptures have revealed that to them, but unless they know Jesus as messiah, they know of Him but do not know Him in a saving fashion!

 

[Iconoclast]

"R mitchell,
said this:

First you are guilty of the black and white fallacy as there are more than the two options you have given.

Further you are guilty of the begging the question fallacy.

As if you name a "fallacy" instead of answering....let's try that

Rm said these;

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Nope, one must first believe then they receive.

Rm has committed the say the opposite of what the verse says fallacy, by ignoring vs.13 which explains vs.12
vs13-13 Which were born, not of blood, .nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God
speaking of 1 cor2...he says

So if you read the entirety of that chapter and in fact include chapter one you will find that the comparison, in context, is the spiritual thinking verses the worldly thinking not the saved and the lost[/QUOTE]

This is the I do not understand the passage but I am going to make up something to explain it away fallacy

yet again;

Since God demands that we believe first then we are saved [/QUOTE]

This is the there is not one verse that teaches this false idea fallacy

heres another;

So you do not have any scripture to back up your claim just philosophy. Is that right?

Here is the complaining of no scriptural support fallacy, when RM fails to offer scripture on 98% of his one line posts...

next;

My question for you is why is God's grace (the gospel) not sufficient to save? Why do you call faith a gift that is only given to a few when God said that faith comes from hearing the gospel and is open to everyone?

These questions are just standard red herring fallacies.

next;

The context here is not the lost man vs. the saved man, it is Godly wisdom vs. worldly wisdom. The context is determined by the use of "wisdom" in verse 6 and 13. Regenerated man is not spoken of here.

Here is the old do not understand the passage at all...it does not speak of a regenerate man fallacy....
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

next;

You have it backwards, the gospel is what gives the spiritual discernment for it is the power of God to salvation.

Here is the....we do not need the Spirit to quicken the word to us fallacy

next;

Why is God's grace (the gospel) not sufficient to save?

I still do not understand the verse at all, so let me keep asking the same question fallacy

next;

Romans 10:17 says that faith also comes from God's word not some extra measure of supernatural grace or regeneration pre-salvation.

Here is the deny God 's supernatural work of salvation fallacy...so man can be in control.

The elect have already made their choice else they would not be elect. One becomes elect after salvation.

Here is the I have no idea what I am talking about fallacy, so I will invent my own version of the facts in complete opposition to God's revelation of truth

The error continues;

No we become elect when we are "in Christ". Once we are in Christ we are elected to righteousness.]

The I am off the rails fallacy.

next;

He predestined that everyone who believes would be saved. It says nothing about causing them.

This is the I do not welcome biblical truth fallacy
next;

Foreknowledge doesn't mean predetermined.[/QUOTE]

The I have never studied this out fallacy.

next;

When God decided before the foundation of the world that those who would believe would be elected to righteousness,

The this is nowhere in scripture fallacy

 

[Jesus Saves!]

Would you say salvation is conditional based on how we respond to the gospel?

 

[InTheLight]

You must take it all or none of it.

According to your beliefs, I suppose. But not according to the Bible.

Paul says the natural man cannot discern spiritual truth. And the Gospel is exactly that. Spiritual truth. Now you can hose it down into a law even Al Capone can keep. But he'll never discern the true Christ apart from the new birth.

No, Paul says the natural man "cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God". What are these things? Says in verse 6 that these things are discussed among mature Christians, says in verse 10 they are the deep things of the Spirit.

Many Jews worshipped Satan thinking their idea of YHWH was on target.

Objection! Irrelevant and a non sequitur.

 

[Revmitchell]

You must take it all or none of it. Paul says the natural man cannot discern spiritual truth. And the Gospel is exactly that. Spiritual truth. Now you can hose it down into a law even Al Capone can keep. But he'll never discern the true Christ apart from the new birth. Many Jews worshipped Satan thinking their idea of YHWH was on target.

The natural man doesn't mean lost it means those who rely on worldly wisdom rather than godly wisdom.

 

[Benjamin]

The bottom line, after we exhaust all avenues of discussion is: if your response to God, or choice to not resist God initiates your salvation, then salvation is by self-righteousness and not grace. This is full blown Pelagianism.

Your conclusion which you start with pretty much defines "question begging".

It's also like saying that if someone offers you a gift and you reach out to take it that you've self-righteousness earned the gift.

Your boogeyman accusation of Pelagianism is meritless.

 

[Benjamin]

If salvation is conditional it is not of grace, it is works. It results in salvation for the self-righteous every time, and withholds salvation from those who cannot save themselves.

If God is the judge of your response to His freely given offer of truth then His grace is conditional only on His judgment to provide mercy in loving grace which you did not work for, He did all the work, but you received it according to His will based on His judgment. You seem to deny His ways of judgment which must be based on something [volition] to be truth.

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

 

[Iconoclast]

The natural man doesn't mean lost it means those who rely on worldly wisdom rather than godly wisdom.

Complete denial of scripture...in the english or the greek

 

[Benjamin]

Complete denial of scripture...in the english or the greek

FYI, your interpretations are not scripture and you don't even speak Greek but blindly rely on others [Cals] to to interpret that for you. That said, we won't go into your methods of interpretion according to the use of English...

 

[Iconoclast]

FYI, your interpretations are not scripture and you don't even speak Greek but blindly rely on others [Cals] to to interpret that for you. That said, we won't go into your methods of interpretion according to the use of English...

His denial and false teaching is just that...in any language....Did I say what I wrote is scripture?..Where was that? Can you and ITL perhaps show actually what I posted rather than what ...YOU SUGGEST i MIGHT POST.

 

[Benjamin]

His denial and false teaching is just that...in any language....Did I say what I wrote is scripture?..Where was that? Can you and ITL perhaps show actually what I posted rather than what ...YOU SUGGEST i MIGHT POST.

You said he denies scripture. Are you aware of the accusation there?! In English??? Or have you said things like this so many times that it is simply habitual behavior? I said your interpretation is a NOT scripture clarifying the meaning "that" [your interpretation] is what is being denied, rather than your insinuation that he denies scripture.There is good reason that I would feel the need to make that distinction and this is that in English, that [deny scripture] is what you said. .

 

[Iconoclast]

"Benjamin,

You said he denies scripture.

Yes...it is a direct denial of scripture....here is his quote;

Revmitchell said: ↑
The natural man doesn't mean lost it means those who rely on worldly wisdom rather than godly wisdom.

Paul is contrasting the man under the dominion of the flesh...the natural man...with the man who God has saved and indwelt with His Spirit.
Paul is consistent in his teaching on this...in all places...like here-

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The natural man.....all men born in Adam do not come with the Spirit indwelling them.
To deny this , is to deny directly the teaching of scripture....

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised: psuchikos de anthropos ou dechetai (PMI/PPI) ta tou pneumatos tou theou, moria gar auto estin, (PAI) kai ou dunatai (PMI/PPI) gnonai, (AAN) hoti pneumatikos anakrinetai; (PPI):

Amplified - But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

Barclay - A man who has no life but physical life cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. To him they are foolishness and he cannot understand them, because it takes the Spirit to discern them.

NLT - But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means.

Wuest Expanded Paraphrase - But the unregenerate man of the highest intellectual attainments does not grant access to the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are folly, and he is not able to come to know them because they are investigated in a spiritual realm.

Are you aware of the accusation there?! In English??? Or have you said things like this so many times that it is simply habitual behavior?

The truth revealed does not change because religious snowflakes do not like to hear it. This is not a mistake, but a deliberate falsehood being offered.....the text has no support for such a bogus idea....if you do not like it...find a" safe space" where you will not be confronted on falsehoods being offered as truth by someone who has posted more than anyone else on the BB.

I said your interpretation is a NOT scripture clarifying the meaning "that" [your interpretation] is what is being denied, rather than your insinuation that he denies scripture.

Nonsense.....RM has me blocked so...he does not react to what i post...he was inflicting this on others.

 

[Iconoclast]

But - Whenever you encounter this term of contrast, pause to ponder and ask what is being contrasted? The contrast is between the lost and the saved, respectively referred to as the natural man versus the spiritual man. We are all born natural men in Adam (Ro 5:12-note), but when we believe the "word of the Cross" (1Cor 1:18), we are transferred from our position "in Adam" to our eternal position "in Christ" (by grace through faith). As Peter says we "become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust (a description of the natural man's life)." (2Peter 1:4-note)

A natural man - This person is lost, unsaved, unregenerate, devoid of the Spirit of God, one who has only physical life. In this passage Paul states that the only way a natural man can accept and understand the supernatural Word is via a supernatural Source, the Spirit of God.

Adrian Rogers describes the natural man this way - Now, if you're a natural man and never have been born again—and a natural man is a man who's only had one birth. He was born into the natural world and he is bound by the material world. He's only had one birth and he can never ever know the things of the spirit of God until he has a second birth.

NET Note on natural man (psuchikos… anthropos) - “an unspiritual person, one who merely functions bodily, without being touched by the Spirit of God.”

Natural (5591)(psuchikos from psuche = soul) is literally "soulish" with affinity to natural sinful propensities, the person in whom the sarx, the flesh, is more the ruling principle. Psuche is the nonphysical element which makes one alive, conscious of the environment, and is to be distinguished from pneuma or spirit, which is a distinctive of man as the element of communication with God.

Jude describe men who had crept into the assembly seeking to turn the grace of God into licentiousness (Jude 1:4-note) as "the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded (psuchikos), devoid of the Spirit." (Jude 1:19-note) And so the natural man does not have the Holy Spirit. Paul amplifies this in Romans writing "you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." (Ro 8:9-note) And so the natural man does not belong to God, is not part of God's family, which explains why he cannot understand the "family language" so to speak. In 1Cor 2:12 Paul describes himself as a spiritual man who is the antithesis of the natural man, for the spiritual man has not received "the spirit of the world, but the Spirit Who is from God." In that same passage Paul presented another distinction between the spiritual and natural man, namely that the spiritual man (Paul speaking of himself) can "know the things freely given" by God, but the natural man cannot know (or understand) them (1Cor 2:14).

Wuest - The word “natural” is the translation of a Greek word which Paul uses to describe to the Corinthian Greeks the unregenerate man at his best, the man whom Greek philosophy commended, the man actuated by the higher thoughts and aims of the natural life. The word used here is not the Greek word which speaks of the sensual man. It is the word coined by Aristotle to distinguish the pleasures of the soul, such as ambition and the desire for knowledge, from those of the body. The natural man here spoken of is the educated man at the height of his intellectual powers, but devoid of the Spirit of God. The word translated “receiveth” does not imply an active appropriation, but a certain attitude of passive acceptance when favorable, and of rejection if unfavorable. This man, whose powers of apprehension are limited to the exercise of his reason, does not admit these spiritual things into his heart. The reason for this rejection is that they are foolishness to him. (Ibid)

Friberg summary of psuchikos = of life in the natural world and what pertains to it; (1) as governed by sensual appetites and lived apart from the Spirit of God natural, unspiritual, worldly (1Cor 2.14; Jude 1:19); (2) as being a characteristic of the earthly body physical, natural (1Cor 15.44); neuter as a substantive - what is physical (1Cor 15.46). Jude 1:19 calls the teachers of error worldly (lit. ‘psychic’) people, who do not have the Spirit. (Analytical Lexicon)

Barclay - Even then it is not every man who can understand these things. Paul speaks about interpreting spiritual things to spiritual people. He distinguishes two kinds of men. (a) There are those who are pneumatikos. Pneumais the word for Spirit; and the man who is pneumatikos is the man who is sensitive to the Spirit and whose life is guided by the Spirit. (b) There is the man who is psuchikos. Psuche in Greek is often translated soul; but that is not its real meaning. It is the principle of physical life. Everything which is alive has psuche; a dog, a cat, any animal has psuche, but it has not got pneuma. Psuche is that physical life which a man shares with every living thing; but pneuma is that which makes a man different from the rest of creation and kin to God. So in 1Cor 2:14Paul speaks of the man who is psuchikos. He is the man who lives as if there was nothing beyond physical life and there were no needs other than material needs, whose values are all physical and material. A man like that cannot understand spiritual things. (His interests and aims do not go beyond physical life). (1 Corinthians - William Barclay's Daily Study Bible)

As Dr DeHaan says "Regeneration… is a supernatural act of God whereby a spiritual creation takes place, and we behold things which are utterly unknown and must remain completely unknown even to the most cultured, sophisticated, educated of those of Adam’s race who have never experienced the new birth. And now we come to see the striking contrast in our Scripture. The natural man, the unregenerated man, sees none of these glories of this Book and of salvation and of God’s plan of redemption. He lives in an entirely different world, the world of sense and of sight, touch and sound. The tangible world is the habitat of the natural man in his unregenerate state, and he is, therefore, totally ignorant of the spiritual realm which transcends all of these things." (1 Corinthians Commentary)

Barclay on natural man - He is the man who lives as if there was nothing beyond physical life and there were no needs other than material needs, whose values are all physical and material. A man like that cannot understand spiritual things.

Chuck Smith on natural man - That is the way you were born, the nature you inherited from Adam. The theologians have a term, "The Adamic nature". It refers to what they term the unregenerate man. This is every man who has not be born again. Jesus said to Nicodemus, "You must be born again, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit." Paul in another place refers to the natural man as the old man. (Ro 6:6) "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin" Paul described the characteristics of the natural man in Eph 2:2-3 and Eph 4:17-19. (Chuck Smith Sermon Notes)

 

[skypeace]

I believe salvation is totally of Christ by Grace, through Faith, thanking Father for the gift of Faith, and His election which brings me to Him. Regeneration makes it possible for us to believe with a saving faith, to hear His Word in a saving manner, to accede to His Lordship and thus testify to Him.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe salvation is totally of Christ by Grace, through Faith, thanking Father for the gift of Faith, and His election which brings me to Him. Regeneration makes it possible for us to believe with a saving faith, to hear His Word in a saving manner, to accede to His Lordship and thus testify to Him.

Nice post...welcome to Baptistboard...

 

[Benjamin]

"Benjamin,
Yes...it is a direct denial of scripture....

...Paul is consistent in his teaching on this...in all places...

And I disagree with your interpretation [or as you like to put it: “Your complete denial of scripture.”]



Odd you would try to rely on consistency pertaining to Paul's meaning of "natural man" and what/who it is in relation to.

Like elsewhere, Paul prayed that believers needing spiritual growth would come to knowledge of the full revelation of God.

(Eph 1:17) That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

In 1Cor 2:14 Paul is not speaking of understanding and accepting the Gospel but the deeper revelations of the spirit of more mature Christians. You should take note that these infants are not yielding to the spirit but are letting their carnal passions, things like trying to force fit systematic determinism AND Predestination, into their understanding because as Paul says they [believers] are spiritually discerned meaning they are ineffective and unproductive in their knowledge of Jesus Christ. Kind of like when you spout off at those who scoff or mock your gospel and you tell them that not all have been preselected to respond to His calling.

It seems that just like in the scolding Paul was giving to the Jews you just can't stand the thought that the Gospel is a genuine and obtainable offer to all.

(1Co 3:2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

In comparison Paul is saying believers that have difficulty discerning between good and evil, as Calvinist typical do, when they try to impose their interpretations which assign the predestined evil upon God, that they shouldn’t be trying to be teachers.

(Heb 5:12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

(Heb 5:13) For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

(Heb 5:14) But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The “natural man” spoken of is in reference to struggling to digest strong meat while Calvinists try to take from the meaning and try to insist it means man is too depraved to accept God and thus force fit their systematic doctrines of Irresistible Grace. Kind of an oxymoron that Calvinist would try to single out and use this scripture this way when in fact it is calling them out for missing the full revelation that Jesus has died for whosoever shall believe.

 

[percho]

The gospel is not open to everyone. All of the nations and most of Israel perished never hearing it. And twice in Acts the Holy Ghost forbade preaching to Asia for a time. The Gospel is not a system of works for the self-righteous, it announces to all who believe in Christ, they have eternal life. Eternal life has no beginning or end. They were always saved in the mind of God.

Amen...

but has been made manifest now by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, and brought to light life and incorruptibility by the glad tidings; (Gospel) 2 Tim 1:10

It was good news told to the believing ones, so they would then know that their salvation had been wrought.

who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord; Rom 1:4
because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; Rom 8:29

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Cor 5:5

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin,

And I disagree with your interpretation [or as you like to put it: “Your complete denial of scripture.”]

You have every right to disagree and I am glad to see you offered scripture to support your ideas this time...let's see what you have got my friend.

Odd you would try to rely on consistency pertaining to Paul's meaning of "natural man" and what/who it is in relation to.

Benjamin...virtually every source was completely agreed on this...it is not a disputed passage at all....Did you notice i even quoted Chuck Smith and adrian Rogers who despise Calvinism?

Like elsewhere, Paul prayed that believers needing spiritual growth would come to knowledge of the full revelation of God.

yes...i agree with you here,and as a matter of fact. i would rather discuss those sections of scripture more than we do on BB.
(Eph 1:17) That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
This is a great portion of scripture...paul praising God for electing grace and mercy, bursts out in prayer and praise, and he wanted everyone to come to that knowledge.

In 1Cor 2:14 Paul is not speaking of understanding and accepting the Gospel but the deeper revelations of the spirit of more mature Christians.

Why would you suggest it is an either or, rather than a both and statement? I am going to suggest if you men were not trying to oppose the Cal teaching you would see it right off...first read...

You should take note that these infants are not yielding to the spirit but are letting their carnal passions,

It was a new church with new professed converts that paul began to rebuke for the sin of sectarianism.....at this point in the letter.
He is rebuking them by saying they are acting like unsaved, natural men of flesh...rather than Spirit filled persons who should be growing.

things like trying to force fit systematic determinism

No...this is only in your mind...Paul had no problem with Calvinistic teaching as he wrote most of it.
look in chapter1;
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

AND Predestination, into their understanding because as Paul says they [believers] are spiritually discerned

He rebukes them because they have the Spirit and should have known what he was speaking of already...

meaning they are ineffective and unproductive in their knowledge of Jesus Christ.

they were distracted by sin.

Kind of like when you spout off at those who scoff or mock your gospel and you tell them that not all have been preselected to respond to His calling.

Well Benjamin...not all are called effectually.....in order to tell the truth this is part of a balanced presentation, both with those who profess and those who do not profess faith...

It seems that just like in the scolding Paul was giving to the Jews you just can't stand the thought that the Gospel is a genuine and obtainable offer to all.

Why would you say that...when i have explained to you several times that i offer the gospel to every person i get an opportunity to? I spend many hours in public like right now...have only had 3 opportunities that were substantial today....but i will be here for several hours more...
The gospel belongs to God....I am just to be faithful and occupy until he comes and obey mt 28....I pray for these very occasions that God provides....

(1Co 3:2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

yes...sin had them all twisted

In comparison Paul is saying believers that have difficulty discerning between good and evil, as Calvinist typical do, when they try to impose their interpretations which assign the predestined evil upon God, that they shouldn’t be trying to be teachers.

Now of course that is not found in the text...but you are trying to take your shots ...you know, like you and ITL were trying to accuse me of a day or two back..lol Hypocrisy much?

(Heb 5:12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

(Heb 5:13) For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

(Heb 5:14) But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

This fine portion of Hebrews is specifically about the writers desire to discuss the priesthood of Melchisedec...you were not going to try andlift this out of the book for nefarious purposes???

The “natural man” spoken of is in reference to struggling to digest strong meat

No..the word was used in greek literature for man..even at genius levels...who were devoid of the Spirit...I gave support for this in refuted RM.

while Calvinists try to take from the meaning and try to insist it means man is too depraved to accept God and thus force fit their systematic doctrines of Irresistible Grace

.
Calvinists just see and believe it for what it is...that it fits perfectly is what probably led to a formulation to the remonstrants error.

Kind of an oxymoron that Calvinist would try to single out and use this scripture this way when in fact it is calling them out for missing the full revelation that Jesus has died for whosoever shall believe.

No the Calvinist correct understanding shows how paul rebukes them....for ACTING AS MERE MEN...CARNAL , NATURAL UNSAVED MEN.... that is why it is a rebuke...not sure how you with your "logic "cannot see it.