Birth Before Belief

[Yeshua1]

You're projecting someone else's beliefs onto me. Nowhere in this thread have I described my stance on salvation, except to say that natural man, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, can understand the Gospel.

I notice that you continually avoid addressing my point that 1 Cor. 2 is describing deeper spiritual things as being not received by the natural man and these deeper things that are not understood is not the gospel.

Does God extend that means to understand towards all sinners than?

 

[Revmitchell]

God election is on an individual basis, per each person, as Jesus died in place of them, and not for a Plan of election!

First you are guilty of the black and white fallacy as there are more than the two options you have given. Further you are guilty of the begging the question fallacy. Lastly I said nothing about a plan of election.

 

[Yeshua1]

First you are guilty of the black and white fallacy as there are more than the two options you have given. Further you are guilty of the begging the question fallacy. Lastly I said nothing about a plan of election.

God did not do a corporate election of the Church, nor of His plan, but on an individual basis!

 

[Revmitchell]

God did not do a corporate election of the Church, nor of His plan, but on an individual basis!

Says you, I would rather trust in scripture.

 

[1689Dave]

You're projecting someone else's beliefs onto me. Nowhere in this thread have I described my stance on salvation, except to say that natural man, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, can understand the Gospel.

I notice that you continually avoid addressing my point that 1 Cor. 2 is describing deeper spiritual things as being not received by the natural man and these deeper things that are not understood is not the gospel.

We can bat this around all day. But your interpretation robs God of his glory and results in self-righteousness as being the savior. Mine gives full glory to God in saving people.

 

[Yeshua1]

Says you, I would rather trust in scripture.

I would also, just helping you to see more clearly what they teach....

 

[1689Dave]

When God decided before the foundation of the world that those who would believe would be elected to righteousness, it was at that moment that the will of God was the determining factor. The required response from God to believe and repent has nothing to do with the will that provided our salvation. That was taken care of at the foundation of the world.

= salvation by self-righteousness.

 

[Revmitchell]

We can bat this around all day. But your interpretation robs God of his glory and results in self-righteousness as being the savior. Mine gives full glory to God in saving people.

That is your personal view due to your conflation of man making a choice with God's decision to save. They are distinct and man responding in humility does not constitute meriting salvation.

 

[Revmitchell]

= salvation by self-righteousness.

Again, no scripture supports this ideology.

 

[1689Dave]

That is your personal view due to your conflation of man making a choice with God's decision to save. They are distinct and man responding in humility does not constitute meriting salvation.

That is not a personal view. It is what you preach. If salvation is conditional it is not of grace, it is works. It results in salvation for the self-righteous every time, and withholds salvation from those who cannot save themselves.

 

[1689Dave]

Again, no scripture supports this ideology.

Grace is unconditional. “for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:8–10)

 

[Revmitchell]

That is not a personal view. It is what you preach. If salvation is conditional it is not of grace, it is works. It results in salvation for the self-righteous every time, and withholds salvation from those who cannot save themselves.

Since when do we say that the giving of a gift is conditional simply because one must reach out and receive it. In order for it to true be a gift we give do we need to also pick up their hands and place it there while making them grip it? Must we also unwrap it for them? You further misunderstand the word self-righteous. One cannot be self-righteous because of a decision made. Decision making is never described anywhere in scripture as that which make on righteous. Self-righteousness must always be attached to the OT law. Your failure to understand what biblical works is, is what is leading you astray.

 

[Revmitchell]

Grace is unconditional. “for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:8–10)

Believing and faith, which God made us to do, is not a work. Again you fail to understand what biblical works is.

 

[1689Dave]

Believing and faith, which God made us to do, is not a work. Again you fail to understand what biblical works is.

When you make human choice the determining factor in salvation, it stops being grace and becomes self-righteousness. And robs God of his full glory, taking some of it to yourself.

 

[Revmitchell]

When you make human choice the determining factor in salvation, it stops being grace and becomes self-righteousness. And robs God of his full glory, taking some of it to yourself.

It doesn't matter how many times you say it it still is not true, it is not supported by scripture and you still fail to properly understand biblical works.

 

[1689Dave]

It doesn't matter how many times you say it it still is not true, it is not supported by scripture and you still fail to properly understand biblical works.

It is true if salvation rests on your self-righteous decision.

 

[Yeshua1]

Since when do we say that the giving of a gift is conditional simply because one must reach out and receive it. In order for it to true be a gift we give do we need to also pick up their hands and place it there while making them grip it? Must we also unwrap it for them? You further misunderstand the word self-righteous. One cannot be self-righteous because of a decision made. Decision making is never described anywhere in scripture as that which make on righteous. Self-righteousness must always be attached to the OT law. Your failure to understand what biblical works is, is what is leading you astray.

Calvinist would say that God extends that Gift to all sinners, but only His elect have been enabled by Him to actually want to go grab it! The natural man sees and hears and refuses it..

 

[InTheLight]

We can bat this around all day.

You haven't yet addressed my point that the things the natural man cannot comprehend are the deep things of the spirit and not the gospel. You haven't batted around anything, except strawmen.

But your interpretation robs God of his glory and results in self-righteousness as being the savior. Mine gives full glory to God in saving people.

My interpretation is right from Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

The gospel is the "power of God". I'm not lessening his glory one iota by saying the Holy Spirit enables men to understand it.

 

[1689Dave]

Since when do we say that the giving of a gift is conditional simply because one must reach out and receive it. In order for it to true be a gift we give do we need to also pick up their hands and place it there while making them grip it? Must we also unwrap it for them? You further misunderstand the word self-righteous. One cannot be self-righteous because of a decision made. Decision making is never described anywhere in scripture as that which make on righteous. Self-righteousness must always be attached to the OT law. Your failure to understand what biblical works is, is what is leading you astray.

Only the self-righteous will reach out to receive it. But the gospel is not packaged that way. You turn it into law when you suggest it has conditions strapped to it.

 

[Revmitchell]

It is true if salvation rests on your self-righteous decision.

Just because you add "self-righteous" in front of "decision" doesn't make it so. Further you cannot show me in scripture where a decision for God equals self-righteousness. Honestly the whole thing is a silly notion.