Birth Before Belief

[Revmitchell]

Those whom God both predestined and foreknown means far more than just God knowing who would decide to accept jesus, its that He caused them to accept jesus!

He predestined that everyone who believes would be saved. It says nothing about causing them.

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually the verse, Romans 8:29, says that God predestined people to be "conformed to the image of Christ". That is sanctification, not salvation.

Yes, but those would also be the very ones that he foreknowpredestined for salvation!

 

[Yeshua1]

He predestined that everyone who believes would be saved. It says nothing about causing them.

The Foreknowledge that Paul is describing in Romans would be that of the Lord knowing his own people, choosing out a faithful remnant among all nations/peoples and tribes for His name sake!

 

[Jesus Saves!]

If the intent of God was to have all sinners saved by the Cross of Christ, they would have all been saved...

I have never read that Heaven has gotten any bigger. But, we find hell enlarges its borders daily because mankind is going to a place that wasn't made for them. It was made for the devil and his angels. Mankind goes to hell because they reject the only sacrifice, Jesus. I feel God by the power of the Holy Ghost and the preached gospel enlightens us (convicts) us to the truth that we're lost before God. A dead man has to be enlightened to who he is in the eyes of God and not man. Then we have the opportunity to repent and believe the gospel. I'm not on here to argue or disprove anyone, but to share the truth as I've been shown it.

 

[Revmitchell]

The Foreknowledge that Paul is describing in Romans would be that of the Lord knowing his own people, choosing out a faithful remnant among all nations/peoples and tribes for His name sake!

Foreknowledge doesn't mean predetermined.

 

[TCassidy]

The elect have already made their choice else they would not be elect. One becomes elect after salvation.

Yes. President Trump was sworn in as President on January 20. Then, on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in February the states elected him President.

Uh, wait. Nope. Elected then because President. Just as we are elected then we become Christians.

 

[TCassidy]

You say it's not the same thing.

That is correct. I say it is not the same thing because it is not the same thing.

I say it is the same thing.

Yes, you say it is the same thing, which proves you don't understand that it is not the same thing.

Neither of us has proven anything.

You have proven that you don't understand that regeneration and salvation are not the same thing.

We've both made an assertion.

And your assertion proves you don't understand that regeneration and salvation is not the same thing.

 

[TCassidy]

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to always give thanks to God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth.

There it is, in rather simple 1-2-3 format.

1. God chose/elected us.
2. Unto salvation.
3. Through Spiritual sanctification (regeneration)
4. That we would believe.

 

[TCassidy]

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

1. God chose us. Election.
2. To be rich in faith. Given faith to believe.
3. And to inherit His Kingdom. And receive salvation.

 

[Benjamin]

Yes. President Trump was sworn in as President on January 20. Then, on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in February the states elected him President.

Uh, wait. Nope. Elected then because President. Just as we are elected then we become Christians.

Yeah, and God follows man's example so He can get this election stuff correct! So that reasoning follows with Christians. ...LOL

 

[TCassidy]

Yeah, and God follows man's example so He can get this election stuff correct! So that reasoning follows with Christians. ...LOL

You seem to have a problem understanding rather simple posts. Let me know what it was that confused you and I will try to explain it to you.

 

[Benjamin]

You seem to have a problem understanding rather simple posts. Let me know what it was that confused you and I will try to explain it to you.

One is elected first then he becomes president later.

Just as we are elected by predestination before being saved.

Therefore, you have offered logical reason why your position on Christian election should stand.

Got it.

No confusion as to the validity of your reasoning, therefore no explanation necessary.

 

[Iconoclast]

One is elected first then he becomes president later.

Just as we are elected by predestination before being saved.

Therefore, you have offered logical reason why your position on Christian election should stand.

Got it.

No confusion as to the validity of your reasoning, therefore no explanation necessary.

And yet somehow you and the others do not seem comfortable with the correct ordo salutis...too busy reading anti cal sites perhaps. ..

 

[Benjamin]

And yet somehow you and the others do not seem comfortable with the correct ordo salutis...too busy reading anti cal sites perhaps. ..

“Yet” [in reference to whether an argument is valid or not] makes me and others uncomfortable with the “correct” [no reason given to support his claim except the “yet” referenced] ordo salutis."

...But to be fair, Icon offers further logical reason for his position being correct: “…to busy reading anti cal sites perhaps. …” IOWs, his opposition is uncomfortable with his claim that his position is correct because they might read opposing views to his.

Got that too!

Thanks for the logical input Icon. I really did need that! LOL

 

[InTheLight]

You seem to have a problem understanding rather simple posts. Let me know what it was that confused you and I will try to explain it to you.

I get it. Trump was elected by an outside agency but he didn't become President until he accepted the office by going forward in public, repeating a simple oath, and confessing with his mouth that he would uphold the law.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[1689Dave]

Wow, you are all over the map here. The Gospel is of God yes, but it is not what is being discussed in 1 Cor. 2. What is being discussed is the wisdom of God among mature Christians, "even the deep things of God"(v. 10).

The Gospel is the basic good news of God. The disciples were told to preach it to all nations. It's not the deep wisdom of God meant for mature Christians.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Is the gospel one of the "things of God"? If so, you are mistaken in your assigning the apprehension of truth to the spiritually elite only.

 

[1689Dave]

You are engaging in doublespeak--"have faith in my faith". Bunch of twaddle. Of course, I don't trust in my righteous to save me.

If you believe your decision to believe saved you, apart from which you would be passed by, your faith is in your faith and not in Christ. If you realize you can do nothing to be saved, and look beyond yourself trusting in Christ alone for salvation, you will be saved. Otherwise you are holding up your filthy rags of intellectual assent to God trying to justify yourself by it.

 

[1689Dave]

You have it backwards, the gospel is what gives the spiritual discernment for it is the power of God to salvation. The grace, the power, the provision for understanding, the provision for faith is found in the gospel. You find the gospel (God's word) insufficient for salvation. Based on scripture I find God's word sufficient for salvation.

Why do so many reject the gospel, and some accept it? Are those who accept it better than the rest? This is your trade off. If your goodness causes you to embrace Christ, you are Pelagian in your thinking. And self-righteousness determines whom God saves. But if God opens the hearts of those whom he chose to save, so that they believe in Christ, then salvation is by grace alone.

The self-righteous steal God's glory taking some of it to themselves. Those who know salvation is out of reach unless God grants it, glorify God and not themselves.

 

[Revmitchell]

Why do so many reject the gospel, and some accept it? Are those who accept it better than the rest?

Why did Jesus say "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven.
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

This is your trade off. If your goodness causes you to embrace Christ, you are Pelagian in your thinking.

I don't believe nor have I said that goodness has anything to do with it. I have said it was the gospel alone that enables us to believe. Those who do not believe have the same enabling gospel and the reasons they reject God are many. With the rich ruler it was because of his immense wealth. For the lawyer in Luke it was his pride and need for self justification.

But if God opens the hearts of those whom he chose to save, so that they believe in Christ, then salvation is by grace alone.

God does choose who He wants to save, which is those who believe.

The self-righteous steal God's glory taking some of it to themselves. Those who know salvation is out of reach unless God grants it, glorify God and not themselves.

…and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;” -2 Timothy‬ ‭3:15-16‬

1Pe 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Jas 1:21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The gospel is the saving factor.

 

[Rockson]

Disagree!... Birth comes first... Then there are these verses from the Corinthian letter... Change must come first before the sinner can believe... You say belief comes before birth then what are you going to do with these verses... Brother Glen

What regeneration of the human spirit being born again comes first? How can that be when Old Testament saints weren't regenerated? Couldn't they still believe?