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Birth control and Christian colleges.

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Well, let’s see if we can deal with a couple of issues here quickly.

Exodus: 22:16-18. Within the context of sexuality, verse 18 warns, "Do not allow a sorceress to live." A woman who seduces a man through the use of potions is not allowed to live. How might a woman seduce a man to have sex with her? She could say, "I have used my potions so that I can't get pregnant. Come on, sleep with me." Or, "Come on, sleep with me, I have potions that can resolve you of any responsibility."
Did you look at the Hebrew word underlying this Greek translation? It is the word casaph, and means witchcraft, or diviners, such as pagan religions used. I have quickly checked BDB, NIDOTTE, TDOT, and TWOT. None of these standard lexicons give any indication of potions being involved. They all say it is about magic and divining and sorcery. The only major lexicon I haven’t checked is HALOT because I don’t have it here at my office. I am fairly sure it says the same thing.

Continuing on, the context itself isn’t about sexuality. In the 31 verses of Exodus 22, there are 3 that have to do with sex. Two are one command (vv. 16-17); the other has to do with beastiality (v. 19). So less than 10% of that context is “sexuality.” And if you want to widen the context, the percentage becomes less and less.

Nahum 3:1-19 is a poem in regards to Nineveh. In verse 4 the word pharmakon is used in the LXX. "All because of the wanton lust of a harlot, alluring, the mistress of sorceries, who enslaved nations by her prostitution and peoples by her witchcraft."

I would submit the following translation for the word pharmakon:

All because of the wanton lust of a harlot, alluring, the mixer of potions, who enslaved nations by her prostitution and peoples by her remedies.
The context is not one of sexuality, but rather of spiritual harlotry, of false worship … which is exactly what I have said all along. The word here again is casaph, and a quick look at the Hebrew Lexica show no great indication of potions. But even if you grant that a potion is involved, there is no indication that the potion is to prevent pregnancy or to induce abortion. I am skeptical that the science was available back then for that.

But even given your (wrong, IMO) interpretation, why doesn’t it mean using drugs such as alcohol to get him loose and unthinking. That is one of the most common uses of alcohol, even in our modern society. It doesn’t have to have anything to do with pregnancy or abortive drugs. You have read that into it to try to make your point.

When God comes against her, he is going to expose her nakedness, lift her skirt above her face, treat her with contempt. In referring to her, God reveals that her infants were dashed to pieces at the head of every street (v. 10).

This is a poem using figurative language, but clearly "potions" is a better translation than "witchcraft."
Clearly it is figurative, but then you turn around and try to make it literal. You deny your own conclusion in so doing. The passage is figurative; the Hebrew word has no indication of potion; it has rather to do with diviners or magicians, such as we see in Pharaoh’s court, Babylon’s court, Nineveh’s court, and other false religions. They were to be put to death because they were false worshippers who influenced others to worship falsely. It did not have to do with potions.

Malachi 3:5 carries the same idea as Exodus 22. In fact, it appears to be a condensed version of Exodus 22. Instead of translating pharmakon as sorcerers in this verse, it would be better understood to mean "mixer of potions."
Again, however, the word is casaph and you have the same problems as before: Not what it means.

Please go back and read my posts. You will see that I connected all of the nouns in each of the three texts. I did highlight that pharmakon, murders, and sexual immorality are in all three lists!
Yes, but you have connected them sequentially which is not in the text. And you have chosen to connect just these three, without respect for the fact that the lists contain others that you have no connected. You have, in an attempt to support your point, selectively used the list. That is not good exegesis.

In Revelation 18:23, there is nothing in the context that would prohibit translating pharmakon as potions. This is Babylon, the great harlot who committed adultery with the kings of the earth (18:3,6,9). I would translate ver 23 as:

"By your potions all the nations were led astray."
That is clearly not the picture. The picture is that Babylon the harlot has led people astray into false worship … spiritual adultery. It is a figurative use of harlotry and does not need potions to make it work.

Revelation 18:6 even says, "Give back to her as she has given; pay her back double for what she has done. Mix her a double portion from her own cup." In other words, give her some of her own medicine (pharmakon)!

It appears to me that when pharmakon is used within the context of sexuality, adultery, immorality, it has the meaning of "potions" or "mixer of potions."
Rev 18:6 doesn’t even use the words. The pay back has to do with judgment for sin.

Every appearance of the root form "pharmakon" in the book of Revelation is better rendered "potions" or "mixer of potions."
Actually, none of them do. It is much easier just to take the lexical definition. Why do you think no translation and no major commentator that I can find believes what you do? I think it is obvious why … It is not what it means.

Assuming my interpretation is wrong and that I'm reading into the text instead of seeking to understand the meaning of words, grammar, context, and figures of speech, so that I can relate it to the last days, how does that equate to blasphemy?[/qutoe][/qb
Because you said your interpretation was the words of Jesus.

[qb]When you preach your "interpretation" of Scripture, and a member of your church disagrees with your interpretation, and you say, "No, the Word of God clearly says this," does your church member have the right to say to you, "You are blaspheming God because you are attributing your interpretation to be the correct interpretation, and you are wrong!"
On matters of dispute, yes, they have that right. I make it clear when I am giving my opinion.

Rigorous exegetical process.

I've given all kinds of evidence. Where's yours?
Your evidence has been shown to be lacking in exegetical strength. I have given evidence. The fact is that the evidence doesn’t have to be long. It is a pretty simple deal. I gave reason why Bullinger was wrong. I gave reasons why your interpretation was wrong. Just because it was such an easy task as to not take much room does not mean I didn’t give it. You have reached after very improbable meanings and structures to argue for your point. The text is much more simple than you are trying to make it.
 

Paul33

New Member
Larry,

You need to read my posts more carefully.

Exodus 22:16-19 deals with sexuality. So I said, "within the context of sexuality."

I admit the wider context has to do with how we treat each other and God.

My next step was to look at the Hebrew words behind the LXX. I'll get back to you.

You know, Larry, this gets tedious. I've used Lexicon definitions.

Direct question: Can pharmakon mean poison without reference to sorcery?

Can pharmakon mean drugs/remedies/medicine without reference to sorcery?

Do you agree with Bauer/Arndt/Gingrich? Yes or no.

Theological dictionary? Yes or no.

Liddell-Scott?

Bullinger?

Just answer yes or no.

I connected every word in the sequence to the first noun. Why can't you accept that? That's what I've done! Read my posts. Again, this is getting tedius. If you want to discuss this, you need to at least represent my position honestly.

Thanks for the discussion.
 
Many in this thread have agreed (and there has been sites shown) that the birth control pills are indeed not just contraceptive in nature, but also abortifacient, just as are iuds, the ring, etc.... Please look it up in the PDR. It will show that the pill alters the lining of the uterus so that if an egg gets fertilized (which does happen) then the uterus is a hostile place for a baby and many times that baby gets flushed out (aborted!). So, whether or not you agree about the Bible's view of birth control, any birth control that kills a baby is NOT acceptable in the Bible....
 

superdave

New Member
That is not an altogether correct statement. If you have a Doctor that has a correct view of the sanctity of human life, there are several products on the market and indeed most of the drugs encompassed by the term "the pill" would fall into this category, that actually prevent ovulation, that is the release of an egg by the ovary that is able to be fertilized. There are very few instances where the argument about merely altering the uterine wall is correct, mostly in cases where interaction with other drugs causes a failure of the contraception.

I think we would all agree that any drug which is abortifacient would be contrary to scriptural principles, at least if it was taken for that purpose, but to connect the various scriptures that have been used on this thread to condemn any form of "family planning" or even chemical/biological means of preventing the fertilization of an egg is extrabiblical at best, and a matter of individual soul liberty at worst.

We are all responsible for our choices, and honestly, God is capable of overriding any of man's means or methods of planning. We have to be certain that our practices align with Biblical principles, and let God deal with the rest.

I know at least 3 couples who became pregnant while taking contraceptive precautions. Praise the Lord!
 

Paul33

New Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Did you look at the Hebrew word underlying this Greek translation? It is the word casaph, and means witchcraft, or diviners, such as pagan religions used. I have quickly checked BDB, NIDOTTE, TDOT, and TWOT. None of these standard lexicons give any indication of potions being involved. They all say it is about magic and divining and sorcery. The only major lexicon I haven’t checked is HALOT because I don’t have it here at my office. I am fairly sure it says the same thing.
Any Hebrew student knows that Hebrew vocabulary is much more broad in its range of meaning than English or Greek. A single Hebrew word has many shades of meaning and context will inform the reader of the precise image that is being communicated. It would help if we were native speakers and thought in Hebrew. This is an admitedly difficult task.

With that said, here are some Hebrew words that pertain:

qasam - practice divination, witchcraft
anan - interprets omens, enchanter, soothsayers
nahash - practice divination
kashshap - sorcerer, use witchcraft
hartom - magician
ashshap - astrologer, enchanter.

Kashshap is the Hebrew word that is behind the word pharmakon in the LXX references to the verses listed above.

One of the mistakes Pastor Larry is making is thinking that a Hebrew word or Greek word must always be translated the same way. This is simply not the case, as Hebrew and Greek words have a range of meaning.

Isaiah 47:9 - "Both of these will overtake you in a moment, on a single day: loss of children and widowhood. They will come upon you in full measure, in spite of your many sorceries and all your potent spells."

Kashshap carries the idea of using witchcraft or "many sorceries" as in Isaiah 47:9. What does it mean to use witchcraft or many sorceries? The context of the verse tells us that the above mentioned person will use potent spells and sorceries. Sorceries very easily could be understood to mean "potions." That's what sorcerers do. They use spells and potions.

The same idea is found in Micah 5:12 - "I will destroy your witchcraft and you will no longer cast spells." Better translated in the NASU - "I will cut off sorceries from your hand." Again, the idea of actually casting spells and using potions.

2 Chronicles 33:6 - "He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists." Here, in two different translations kashshap is translated by one to be witchcraft, and the other to be sorcery.

KJV actually brings out the meaning the best - "also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards." "Used witchcraft" is the Hebrew word kashshap.

So how is kashshap being used? In the context where a man observed times, used enchantments, used potions/spells (witchcraft), dealt with spirits, and wizards.

It is well within the bounds of the Hebrew language to understand kashshap in Nahum 3:4, Ex. 22:18, and Malachi 3:5 to carry the idea of potions.

The English words "drugs" and "potions" are not found in the OT. We know drugs/potions/remedies existed. I would submit that kashshap (sorcery, use witchcraft) allows for those meanings and the context will dictate when.

Before someone says that drugs didn't exist. Moses was trained in all the wisdom of the Egyptians including their pharmaceutical remedies for illness and disease.
 

Paul33

New Member
If I'm not mistaken, there is not one "pill" on the market that doesn't have an abortifacient mechanism in place to abort the embrio if the mother conceives.
 
D

dianetavegia

Guest
Doctor's don't bother to tell the WHOLE truth about this either. I'd like to see a class action suit among Christian couples who have been misled into believing this lie....

I've said before that I had an IUD back in 1971-73 because the ob-gyn on the Army base told me it blocked the sperm from entering, making contact (he drew me a picture... I had the s shaped IUD which was to block the sperm in 3 separate areas) and fertilizing the egg. Studies now show that that is not always true. I was 21 and either he outright lied or he was lied to by the supplier.

I agree that Christian colleges should offer (maybe even require) courses which explain how these different methods work. One would think someone going into the ministry should be fully aware!
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Exodus 22:16-19 deals with sexuality. So I said, "within the context of sexuality."
But my point is that once again you are defining things in such a way as to point only to your conclusion. As I have pointed out, that is illegitimate. The context is a series of commands that have nothing really do to with each other per se. V. 18, the verse in question, is no more connected to vv. 16-17 then vv. 16-17 are connected to v. 15 and prior.

If you define hte context as vv. 14-17, the context is borrowing things ... In other words, the context is not defined as you define it. These commands are not related to the ones previous and following.

Direct question: Can pharmakon mean poison without reference to sorcery?
Yes. most likely. That was never disputed.

Can pharmakon mean drugs/remedies/medicine without reference to sorcery?
Probably ... that was never disputed.

Do you agree with Bauer/Arndt/Gingrich? Yes or no.[/qutoe]Yes, that was never disputed.

Theological dictionary? Yes or no.[/qutoe]Which one? (Probably ... but never disputed).

Liddell-Scott?[/qutoe]Yes, never disputed.

Bullinger?
Not based on what I have read from him here that you have cited. I think his conclusion is poorly drawn and extremely weak.

I connected every word in the sequence to the first noun. Why can't you accept that?
I can accept that you have done that. My point is that it was not a valid connection.

If you want to discuss this, you need to at least represent my position honestly.
I think I have. I have not intentionally misrepresented your position at all. My apologies if I did.

You are saying that pharmakeia in Rev 9, 21, and 22 should be connected with abortive birth control, because sexual immorality and murder are in the same list. I cannot disagree more. I have seen no good exegesis to support that conclusion. It runs contrary to the plain meaning of the text, and the plain use of sin lists in the NT. It runs contrary to the way in which the list is constructed.

With that said, here are some Hebrew words that pertain:

qasam - practice divination, witchcraft
anan - interprets omens, enchanter, soothsayers
nahash - practice divination
[omit word actually used]
hartom - magician
ashshap - astrologer, enchanter.
None of those words matter because they are not the words underlying teh verses you reference. We don't need to know what other words mean. We need to know what cashap means.

One of the mistakes Pastor Larry is making is thinking that a Hebrew word or Greek word must always be translated the same way. This is simply not the case, as Hebrew and Greek words have a range of meaning.
I am not doing that at all. I am saying that no theological dictionary or lexicon that I can find includes the meaning of potions in the definition of cashap. And that is what is at stake. I think you have created a new definition for casaph to support yourserlf.

You keep saying the idea of casting spells and using potions is included in cashaph. But what qualification do you have to add to what Brown, Driver, Briggs, Van Gemeren, Kittel, and many others have said. If that is what it means, why does no one say that?

You cannot simply make up new definitions for words. You can't just add things to help your case. Secondly, even if that were the case (which has certainly not been demonstrated), there is no indication that the drugs or potions in view are abortive in any way. That is simply making stuff up and I categorically reject that.
 

foxrev

New Member
Daine:

Excellent point! That is at the heart of this entire discussion regarding birth control/children.

In the "Information Age" in which we live, it does seem as though we are kept ignorant of many facts in this area.

Perhaps someone knows of a good web site that addresses ALL of the side affects of "Birth Control" in all forms.
 

foxrev

New Member
Pastor Larry says:
"I think I have." "I think you" "I have" "I think " and several other "I" statements. Sounds like you also need to see the optomitrist for your "I" problem. You surely have trouble keeping Paul's words straight too.

Wow, this seems really familiar. Hmmm, oh yes, "Cogito ergo sum"
 

GeneMBridges

New Member
Actually, Pastor Larry,

It is NOT "out of bounds" for Paul to apply the use of the word "farmakeia" to the use of any kind of poisonous drugs beyond the use associated with pagan worship practices. (Actually, it can be very successfully argued from the history of witchcraft from multiple cultures to include Paul's application, as those persons that mixed the drugs for pagan worship also provided them for other applications, including medicine in general...the entire idea of the tribal shaman derives from that very practice). I did some research into the use of the word itself in Greco-Roman culture. According to the History of Pharmacy Museum itself, the use of drugs in Greco-Roman culture was twofold: medicine and poison. These medicines could be used for a variety of purposes, varying from medicinal use to assassination of a rival or murder. Additionally, the earliest "pharmacists" were in fact the local boondaloogoo's that provided traditional homoepatheic remedies themselves. Surely, this would include those used to induce a miscarriage. You are limiting the use of the word to a very modern understanding of sorcery. There is another word in Greek that limits sorcery to the black arts/magic arts alone, magia. That word is NOT the word used. If the word was limited in the manner in which you seek to limit it, Larry, then we would expect the more narrow word choice here, but instead, you find the broader word.

Your logic is also flawed. You write, "Actually, the root of pharmokos is used a fourth time (Rev 18:23) and denies your usage of it. There, it is clearly connected with worship." Well, using that same logic, we could say that the sexual immorality of homosexual acts in Romans 1 is limited to temple rituals, which is a key point in progay theology. It would inconsistent to limit drug use to that associated with worship only (a very modern understanding of sorcery) and not limit the prohibition on homosexual acts in Romans 1 as well. The text Paul is using can very clearly be applied to abortive drugs...or, for that matter, any form of poisoning, which is murder.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
It is NOT "out of bounds" for Paul to apply the use of the word "farmakeia" to the use of any kind of poisonous drugs beyond the use associated with pagan worship practices.
Paul has been making up definitions with respect to the OT word used. The NT usage in Rev is virtually unanimously agreed on as being involved in pagan practices of false worship. No one that I have found gives any reference to birth control drugs.

Your logic is also flawed. You write, "Actually, the root of pharmokos is used a fourth time (Rev 18:23) and denies your usage of it. There, it is clearly connected with worship." Well, using that same logic, we could say that the sexual immorality of homosexual acts in Romans 1 is limited to temple rituals, which is a key point in progay theology. It would inconsistent to limit drug use to that associated with worship only (a very modern understanding of sorcery) and not limit the prohibition on homosexual acts in Romans 1 as well. The text Paul is using can very clearly be applied to abortive drugs...or, for that matter, any form of poisoning, which is murder.
Apples and oranges in a huge way. When Paul said that all the Revelation usages were connected with sexual immorality (I think that was his point from the last page), he was wrong. Rev 18 does not have to do with sexual immorality. Nor it is connected with murder. The problem with your Romans 1 analogy is that Rev very clearly talks about false worship; Rom 1 says nothing about temple worship. There, Paul talks about nature.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Pastor Larry says:
"I think I have." "I think you" "I have" "I think " and several other "I" statements. Sounds like you also need to see the optomitrist for your "I" problem.
These are the kinds of words you use when you are acknowledging that you are giving your own opinion which may be flawed. I don't have the final word on this. I was giving my opinion and my understanding of the text. Therefore, I presented it that way. I don't have an I problem. I wanted to make clear that I was speaking for myself, not for anyone else. You should try it, rather than assumign that your word is the final word.
 

GeneMBridges

New Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It is NOT "out of bounds" for Paul to apply the use of the word "farmakeia" to the use of any kind of poisonous drugs beyond the use associated with pagan worship practices.
Paul has been making up definitions with respect to the OT word used. The NT usage in Rev is virtually unanimously agreed on as being involved in pagan practices of false worship. No one that I have found gives any reference to birth control drugs.

Your logic is also flawed. You write, "Actually, the root of pharmokos is used a fourth time (Rev 18:23) and denies your usage of it. There, it is clearly connected with worship." Well, using that same logic, we could say that the sexual immorality of homosexual acts in Romans 1 is limited to temple rituals, which is a key point in progay theology. It would inconsistent to limit drug use to that associated with worship only (a very modern understanding of sorcery) and not limit the prohibition on homosexual acts in Romans 1 as well. The text Paul is using can very clearly be applied to abortive drugs...or, for that matter, any form of poisoning, which is murder.
Apples and oranges in a huge way. When Paul said that all the Revelation usages were connected with sexual immorality (I think that was his point from the last page), he was wrong. Rev 18 does not have to do with sexual immorality. Nor it is connected with murder. The problem with your Romans 1 analogy is that Rev very clearly talks about false worship; Rom 1 says nothing about temple worship. There, Paul talks about nature.
</font>[/QUOTE]Gene responds to first paragraph: I think you're divorcing the word from its overall context. First, any reference to what people think as a majority is just an appeal to tradition and an appeal to the popular: Logical fallacies.

Secondly, we must ask ourselves what anybody that heard the word "farmakeia" would think of in the mindset of the original recipients. These were Greco-Roman people under persecution from Rome. The history of the term itself denotes the use of poisons. You seek to limit that to "black magic." However, I stand by Paul in his interpretation, simply because the limiting term for "black arts" is mageia NOT farmekia. You are applying your modern day sensibilities to a first century text, Larry. It is a modern understanding of the word "sorcery" to think "black magic" and "pagan worship."


Gene responds to second paragraph. I think you've missed the point. Romans 1 is a play on the words "natural" and "unnatural." Man, in his sin has exchanged the "natural" (which is worship of God) and called it "natural," which is idolatry. From God's standpoint what man, in his sinful state says is "natural" is, in reality very "unnatural." If we follow your logic in limiting words meaning and application then the only idolatry that is pertinent in Romans one is totem worship, the worship of false gods. No, the point of Romans 1 is that all sin is ultimately idol worship, the idol is oneself. The picture of the homosexual sins in Romans 1 is, in fact, a very detailed look at Roman sex orgies in their temples, a concrete example of the way that man worships himself as god and rejects god. From there, Paul goes on to say basically that idol worship is not confined to such practices, and that as Calvin rightly said, "the human heart is an idol factory."

The Revelation sin lists would certainly have the same meaning. You are severely limiting the application of the sin lists. You say that no one you have found would extend the word to the use of abortive drugs. Okay, fair enough. However, I believe you will find plenty of Christian drug counselors that will not limit farmekeia's use to simply witchcraft and will tie implicitly to drug use. Greco-Roman apothecaries also made the drugs for temple worship, as well as medicine, as well as assassination, and they also made drugs for recreation. They were ancient drug dealers, Larry. The History of Pharmacy Museum tells us this, as well as the historical development of witchcraft. They did it ALL, so when we see the word 'farmakeia' we would do well to consider that. That is all that Paul is trying to argue. You're hung up on the black arts, when, in point of fact the word goes far beyond it. You are limiting the application of the word severely.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
I think you're divorcing the word from its overall context. First, any reference to what people think as a majority is just an appeal to tradition and an appeal to the popular: Logical fallacies.
Actually, it was an appeal to the educated. These are the people who are Greek scholars who have studied the language. They are not armchair theologians, trying to support a point on an internet forum. It is not an appeal to tradition or the popular. It is a citation of the experts.

Secondly, we must ask ourselves what anybody that heard the word "farmakeia" would think of in the mindset of the original recipients.
They would have thought of magic arts and pagan rituals. They most certainly would not have thought of birth control. Brown says "Potions include poisons, but there has always been a magical tradition of herbs gathered and prepared for spells, and also for encouraging the presence of spirits at magical ceremonies" (NIDNTT, 2:558). These things are relatively easy to find.

This question, in and of itself, dispells any notion that birth control might be in the picture. No one then would have thought of it.

As for Romans 1, it is not a discussion of sex practices in worship. It is discussion of how many has rejected God and his laws and instead gone his own way. The sin lists of Romans 1 are great examples of why Paul's interpretation of Rev lists is incorrect. The items in the list are not connected to each other. That is a very strange way of understandin the text, and is driven by the need to find something in it, not by the text itself. Just let the lists stand.

I am not limiting the application of the word severely. I am saying that it has a meaning and we should stick with that meaning. You cannot attach every meaning of word to every usage. A word only has one meaning in a context.

Simply put, the attempt to prove birth control wrong by the use of pharmakeia in Rev 22 is a failure. It simply will not work.
 

Paul33

New Member
Larry,

For the sake of understanding, let's lay aside the idea of connecting the nouns in the three lists from Revelation.

Here again is the definition of pharmakon from:

A Greek-English Lexicon of the NT, Bauer/Arndt/Gingrich, p. 854
pharmakon, 1. poison, 2. magic potion, charm, 3. medicine, remedy, drug

There are three meanings given. You agree that there are three meanings listed, right?

You agree that pharmakon in the lists of Revelation are a reference to drugs, right?

Just give me a yes or no.

You have already stated through much conjoling that pharmakon can mean drugs/medicine/remedies. So that's what it means in the lists in Revelation, right?

And one final time. I never attempted to prove birth control wrong by interpreting pharmakon as drugs. I attempted to show that pharmakon includes in its meanings, the idea of abortifacient drugs.

You persist in misrepresenting the discussion. I am not trying to prove that the general idea of birth control is wrong from Revelation 22:15. I'm showing that pharmakon includes the idea of abortifacient drugs.

I've now taken three paragraphs to state and restate the point of the reference to Revelation 22:15, 21:8, and 9:21. You are better than this. Stop misrepresenting my argument.
 

foxrev

New Member
Ladies and Gentlemen:
[unnecessary attack on individuals snipped - show "grace" and not badmouthing others, please]

[ October 31, 2004, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
 

foxrev

New Member
Ok Dr. Bob.

Well said Paul.
thumbs.gif
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
There are three meanings given. You agree that there are three meanings listed, right?
Yes, there are three meanings given, but you have not represented the entire story. On page 854, there is the following

pharmakeia
pharmakeus
pharmakeuo
pharmakon
pharmakos

Rev 9:21 is listed under pharmakeia -- magic arts and under pharmakon -- magic potion, charm
Rev 18:23 is listed under pharmakeia -- sorcery, magic
Rev 21:8 is listed under pharmakeuo -- mixer of poisons, magician; and under pharmokos -- magician
Rev 22:15 is listed under pharmakos -- magician.

None of these Revelation uses is listed under medicine, remedy, or drug. In fact, there are not NT uses of the word in such a way.

Do you see a pattern here? Every single instance in REvelation is listed under the idea of magic. The potions used in magic are well known to be drugs, but they are used for the purpose of the magic arts, of religious potions and spells. And that is how every translation treats it, and is what I have said from the beginning. YOu kept going down a wrong road, and appealing to BAGD really shoots yourself in the foot, BAGD says what I have said. The potions in question are not used to abort babies.

You agree that pharmakon in the lists of Revelation are a reference to drugs, right?
No, not at all. That is what I have said from teh beginning here. You have tried to make it a reference to drugs, but as the lexicon you cited shows, the reference is to magic arts, not to drugs, remedy, or medicine.

You have already stated through much conjoling that pharmakon can mean drugs/medicine/remedies. So that's what it means in the lists in Revelation, right?
No, you are taking one definition and insisting on that meaning. There are other definitions, and the lexicons are in agreement against you. The word can mean that; it does not mean that. Any inclusion of the idea of drugs seems to be directly connected to the idea of false worship and magic arts.

And one final time. I never attempted to prove birth control wrong by interpreting pharmakon as drugs. I attempted to show that pharmakon includes in its meanings, the idea of abortifacient drugs.
And abortifacient drugs are considered birth control. But even at that, Rev does not have abortive drugs in mind in its use of the term.

I am not misrepresenting the discussion at all. I have already said that I agree with you on abortive drugs. I have not distorted anything you have said. The issue here is not whether all birth control or abortive birth control is in view in REvelation. The point is that neither is in view.


I've now taken three paragraphs to state and restate the point of the reference to Revelation 22:15, 21:8, and 9:21.
And you didn't need to. I know what your point is. I am demonstrating that your point is wrong. These verses have nothing to do with any kind of birth control. They have do with false worship, magic arts, or sorcery.

I am not sure how else to say that. I have pretty much said the same thing all the way through. Now you have brought BAGD into the discussion and in so doing have demonstrated that my position is the one held by BAGD; your's is not.
 
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