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Bishop John Spong re-thinks Heaven & Hell

BillySunday1935

New Member
Is that your defense? It's your claim. The burden of proof is on you.

No - you asked me what I believed and I told you. I'm not claiming anything. You, however, are.

But I will give you scripture. Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Amen! However, that does NOT preclude a cleansing for those who are going to heaven. There is no escape from hell. It is apparent that you don't understand what I said.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It says that "...HE APPEARED WITHOUT SIN UNTO SALVATION." This says nothing about the fact that we will die with sin that must be removed by Jesus' sacrifice.

It appears that other things He said are only in your head.

And it would appear that you have a problem with civility.

Peace!
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
I believe that there is a process (instantaneous or not - God is outside of time) by which the imputation of God’s grace (through the atoning blood and sacrifice of Jesus) is applied to us for the forgiveness of sin as a final cleansing. Since nothing with sin can enter heaven and we will all die with some sin (at least I'm sure that I will), then there has to be some cleansing process before we can enter therein - some purification must take place. Call it whatever you will.

IF it were true that the subtitionary atoning sacrifice (payment) by Christ in our behalf was not all that is needed - but rather we ourselves needed to be "cleansed" in some way after death so that we can be fit for heaven -- then there can be no "escaping" that cleansing without getting to heaven "still dirty". Thus no such thing as the supposedly infallalbe teaching of "indulgences".

I keep pointing that out - but no answers from the purgatory-ish group.

in Christ,

Bob
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
IF it were true that the subtitionary atoning sacrifice (payment) by Christ in our behalf was not all that is needed - but rather we ourselves needed to be "cleansed" in some way after death so that we can be fit for heaven -- then there can be no "escaping" that cleansing without getting to heaven "still dirty". Thus no such thing as the supposedly infallalbe teaching of "indulgences".

I keep pointing that out - but no answers from the purgatory-ish group.

in Christ,

Bob

You make a good point. However, ever since I was saved I've wondered why do I still struggle with a sin nature? Why? Wasn't Jesus Attoning Sacrifice enough to get rid of it entierely the moment I asked him into my life? And what is it about death that guarantees this immediately dropping off of sin nature if its not done in this life?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
your judgment is most certainly related to your works, and other things as well - that is all over scripture and you have to be selective to ignore it.

Romans 2:5-7
"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."



It should be abundantly clear what these scriptures mean.


...


Matthew 7:21
Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES (action or WORK) the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth (WORK) to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 19:16-19
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments (WORK). He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure (WORK) unto the end, the same shall be saved.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good (WORKS), unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which WORKETH BY LOVE.

Phillipians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure (WORK), we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us.

James 1:21-27
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a DOER, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein (WORK), he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.

All true of course.

2Cor 5;10 we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body - whether they be good or evil.

Rev 14:6-7 and prior to the 2nd coming you have this announcement from heaven "Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment HAS come".

The happens prior to the 2nd coming because as Rev says "My Reward is with ME" - all accounts are settled just prior to the 2nd coming.

Thus in Dan 7 we see the 2nd coming event takes place just after "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".


Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.



It says “...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”

In the Rev 20 case - you are shooting your own argument in the foot - because the Rev 20:12 event is after the 1000 years, it is after the first resurrection - it applies only to those wicked that were not raised in the first resurrection - but are consigned to the 2nd resurrection - after the 1000 years.
 

BillySunday1935

New Member
There is NO mention anywhere in scripture of a 3rd place men go when they die. There is either heaven or hell.

In the passage you quote, Paul is speaking of saved people and their works. It is the works that are either accepted or burned, not the people. Paul says nothing of a 3rd place a person is sent 'til they work off their sin.
For those in Christ there is NO condemnation.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Correct! There is no condemnation in purgatory. There is, however, purification.

Purgatory (or whatever you wish to call it) is part of heaven. I never said there was a third place - you said that.

Peace!
 

BillySunday1935

New Member
All true of course.

snip...


In the Rev 20 case - you are shooting your own argument in the foot - because the Rev 20:12 event is after the 1000 years, it is after the first resurrection - it applies only to those wicked that were not raised in the first resurrection - but are consigned to the 2nd resurrection - after the 1000 years.

I don't hold to an accurate chronological structure of the book of Revelation. That idea comes from the dispensationlist veiw.


Peace!
 

Amy.G

New Member
You make a good point. However, ever since I was saved I've wondered why do I still struggle with a sin nature? Why? Wasn't Jesus Attoning Sacrifice enough to get rid of it entierely the moment I asked him into my life? And what is it about death that guarantees this immediately dropping off of sin nature if its not done in this life?

Because you are still in sinful flesh. Paul explains this.

Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
You make a good point. However, ever since I was saved I've wondered why do I still struggle with a sin nature? Why? Wasn't Jesus Attoning Sacrifice enough to get rid of it entierely the moment I asked him into my life? And what is it about death that guarantees this immediately dropping off of sin nature if its not done in this life?

Paul observes the problem you speak of in Romans 7 - seeing a gap between what he does in this life and the fact that with his mind he agrees with the Law of God and serves the Law of God.

Romans 8 is the answer - "By the Holy Spirit" daily "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" - as Christ said "take up your cross daily and follow Me".

The thing we struggle with is our sinful nature (that gets removed at the resurrection). We also struggle with our own defects of character - bad habbits cultivated in this life - beyond the sinful desires and defects we are all born with -- that gets resolved by turning to God.

in Col 2 - Paul says "as you RECEIVED Christ Jesus so WALK in Him".

The key is not in some future deed - it is the first deed - it is doing what you did at first - as a lost sinner - turning your will over to God - submitting all to Him.

Retaining that same attitude/decision/act of submitting to God that comes at the moment of conversion - combined with the taking away of the sinful nature at the resurrection is all that is needed. As many of the texts point out - we are to "persevere" in that first decision - it is not a case of living long enough to "reach a new decision" but rather the determination to hold perseveringly to the FIRST one.

Letting go of that first "I surrender all decision" and then failing is the struggle that we face.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Amy.G

New Member

Correct! There is no condemnation in purgatory. There is, however, purification.

Purgatory (or whatever you wish to call it) is part of heaven. I never said there was a third place - you said that.

Peace!

Well then, show me the scripture to prove it. Purgatory (or whatever) is in heaven??? There is a judging of fire in heaven???

That is why I said this stuff is in your head, not being uncivil, just an accurate statement. There is no scriptural support for such a belief.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Because you are still in sinful flesh. Paul explains this.

Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Yeah but look at the last part of that verse he says
who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin
thats a statement in the current not wait until your dead.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Paul observes the problem you speak of in Romans 7 - seeing a gap between what he does in this life and the fact that with his mind he agrees with the Law of God and serves the Law of God.

Romans 8 is the answer - "By the Holy Spirit" daily "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" - as Christ said "take up your cross daily and follow Me".

The thing we struggle with is our sinful nature (that gets removed at the resurrection). We also struggle with our own defects of character - bad habbits cultivated in this life - beyond the sinful desires and defects we are all born with -- that gets resolved by turning to God.

in Col 2 - Paul says "as you RECEIVED Christ Jesus so WALK in Him".

The key is not in some future deed - it is the first deed - it is doing what you did at first - as a lost sinner - turning your will over to God - submitting all to Him.

Retaining that same attitude/decision/act of submitting to God that comes at the moment of conversion - combined with the taking away of the sinful nature at the resurrection is all that is needed. As many of the texts point out - we are to "persevere" in that first decision - it is not a case of living long enough to "reach a new decision" but rather the determination to hold perseveringly to the FIRST one.

Letting go of that first "I surrender all decision" and then failing is the struggle that we face.

in Christ,

Bob

Thats all a part of sanctification. but do you know anyone who has reached perfection when they died? I don't.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Correct! There is no condemnation in purgatory. There is, however, purification.

Purgatory (or whatever you wish to call it) is part of heaven. I never said there was a third place - you said that.

Peace!

But you said there is no sin in heaven. If purgatory is part of heaven, and purgatory is where sinners go to be purified, then sin enters heaven. Contradiction?
 

Amy.G

New Member
Yeah but look at the last part of that verse he says thats a statement in the current not wait until your dead.

You are currently in the body of sinful flesh and you will war with it until you die. When we were saved, God did not remove the sinful nature, but gave us a new nature. These two natures are always at war with one another until the physical body dies.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Bob said:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
All true of course.

snip...


In the Rev 20 case - you are shooting your own argument in the foot - because the Rev 20:12 event is after the 1000 years, it is after the first resurrection - it applies only to those wicked that were not raised in the first resurrection - but are consigned to the 2nd resurrection - after the 1000 years.

I don't hold to an accurate chronological structure of the book of Revelation. That idea comes from the dispensationlist veiw.

Well then you are opening a huge gap in your argument because all those in Rev 20:12 are sent to the lake of fire to suffer the second death.

IF that is in fact how this all works out - judgment by works - tossed into the lake of fire - then you have a solution that is no solution at all except that all sinners get "deleted". Ideally we would want salvation to show up there someplace.

It is beyond dispute that Rev 19 and 20 go to gether and that Rev 20 clearly describes events before and after the 1000 years.

In that one text alone - only those raised in the first resurrection are blessed and holy.

Thus their judgment by works is found in 2Cor 5:10 and takes place as Rev 14 says - prior to the 2nd coming.

It is easy to show that Rev 14 is prior to the 2nd coming (without simply arguing that Rev 14 comes before Rev 19) because the text itself says that this is part of the everlasting Gospel that is going to all those on the earth - and in that same text it describes subsequent actions - for example setting up the image to the beast.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BillySunday1935

New Member
Well then, show me the scripture to prove it. Purgatory (or whatever) is in heaven??? There is a judging of fire in heaven???

That is why I said this stuff is in your head, not being uncivil, just an accurate statement. There is no scriptural support for such a belief.

I gave you scriptural support in post #59 and you completely ignored it. You probably disagree with my interpretation of those scriptures. Conversly, I disagree with yours - now what? Is your interpretation less fallible than mine? You believe what you've been told/taught by others. How do you know that those who taught you had the correct interpretation?

Peace!
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were "in the blink of an eye," this final stage of sanctification must take place, so those who die in God’s favor may be cleansed if any affection for sin remains in them.



She asked for your scripture to support this. You failed to provide it.


Our purification has already been completed:

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

And it will be realized at our redemption:

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


Scripture is the only authoritative source for revelation from God:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Sources outside of scripture bear no authority or credibility as coming from God. That is a key Baptist doctrine and anyone who holds to anything otherwise is not a Baptist.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
You are currently in the body of sinful flesh and you will war with it until you die. When we were saved, God did not remove the sinful nature, but gave us a new nature. These two natures are always at war with one another until the physical body dies.

But Paul still says
who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
This indicates that Jesus saved Paul from the body of death. And I don't understand the mind thing because my mind is still sinful. In fact I would not consider sin save that my mind imagined it first. Whats going on here? Is Paul contradicting himself? Am I being lied to? Arghhhhhhhhhhh!
 

BillySunday1935

New Member
But you said there is no sin in heaven. If purgatory is part of heaven, and purgatory is where sinners go to be purified, then sin enters heaven. Contradiction?

Not at all. Purgatory can be considered the anti-chamber of Heaven - something like an isolation chamber as it were. You cannot enter in (or go through the gates) until you are purified.

Peace!
 

Amy.G

New Member
I gave you scriptural support in post #59 and you completely ignored it. You probably disagree with my interpretation of those scriptures. Conversly, I disagree with yours - now what? Is your interpretation less fallible than mine? You believe what you've been told/taught by others. How do you know that those who taught you had the correct interpretation?

Peace!

What I believe comes straight from God's word. I have proven it to you. You have ignored it and state that there are outside sources to prove your view. (not everything was written in the Bible, as you claim) Your only source so far is only your opinion.


In one post you say "there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven."


In another post you say "Purgatory (or whatever you wish to call it) is part of heaven."


Which is it? If you would only stick to scripture, you would not be caught in these contradictions, because the truth is in God's word.
 

Amy.G

New Member
But Paul still says
This indicates that Jesus saved Paul from the body of death. And I don't understand the mind thing because my mind is still sinful. In fact I would not consider sin save that my mind imagined it first. Whats going on here? Is Paul contradicting himself? Am I being lied to? Arghhhhhhhhhhh!

Calm down. :laugh:

We are saved and redeemed (in the here & now), yet we will not see the end result until death. Make sense?
 
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