Bishops! They are Biblical. Is Pastor?

[EdSutton]

I cannot find anywhere that Junia was an apostle. I see where Junia was 'noted' among the apostles. To be noted among them does not necessarily mean Junia was actually an apostle.

Nicodemus was noted among the Pharisee sect, yet we find he was a believer while the others were not.

Judas noted among disciples, yet not saved.

Many of Jesus' disciples were not truly of Him in John 6.

The point is, it is not clear Junia was an apostle.

The Word of God is not specific as to the gender of Junia either.

Yes, I agree that Judas was not saved but so what? Yes, Nicodemus was saved while most, at least, of the Pharisee sect were not, but again, so what? And if many of Jesus' disciples were not "truly of Him" in John 6, for the third time, so what? I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck, but what does any of that have to do with the point I spoke, the remarks of the person whom I was answering, or the thread, itself?
FTR, I do not find that Scripture ever describes either Judas or Nicodemus as "noted" or "of note" among the groups, so I would respectfully suggest that those two ideas are your opinion, (which you are certainly entitled to have) but not one expressed in Scripture. And I definitely do disagree with the idea of attempting to inject "truly" into the text of John 6:66, which happens to be the passage you are referring to, when it flatly and simply is not in the text, at all. One may be able to believe any of the above to be consistent with Scripture, but no one can say that Scripture declares this, for it does not. By contrast, Scripture does expressly say that "Andronicus and Junia are...of note among the apostles," (Rom. 16:7 - NKJV).
Finally, let's briefly look at evidence that this is telling us that these two were 'apostles' i.e. were so identified, here. The Greek phrase is "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]εισιν επισημοι εν τοις αποστολοις [/FONT]" rendered in the NKJV as "who are of note among the apostles" and as "outstanding among the apostles" in the HCSB, which I previously quoted. There are one word and one phrase that are in play, here. The word is "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]επισημοι[/FONT]", and the phrase is "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]εν τοις αποστολοις[/FONT]". ''EpisEmoi' (episEmos) is properly 'having a mark on it', 'stamped', 'coined', or 'marked' (Thayer's Lexicon) and is translated (in its 'good' sense) as illustrious, outstanding, noted, or prominent. "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Eν τοις αποστολοις[/FONT]" would seem to be the locative case, (as opposed to the instrumental or 'pure' dative), hence, the two were outstanding individuals who were of the group of apostles, would seem to be the import. Is it possible that this merely means 'well known' to the apostles? Yes, but more likely to have a somewhat stronger meaning of 'outstanding', 'prominent', or 'marked' and is somewhat akin to Matthias being 'numbered', IMO.
And as they would not have been 'marked' or 'numbered', in the case of Matthias, to the apostles, it seems more likely that they were prominent 'in' these known as apostles. Is your question/take/idea a possibility? Again, yes it could be, but this farm boy thinks it's less likely than what I'm suggesting the evidence and Greek leads to.

I'd suggest that if the misplaced idea that the positions or offices of the church were not confuted with what are delineated as the spiritual gifts, this would not even be an issue. But many just love the idea (subtly of course) of having some supposed 'authority' above others. Hence, we love the idea of being "The Pastor", one who was "called of God" and ""surrendered" to the 'ministry'". So we take the correct idea that a bishop is to be a male, tack on a little desire to 'lead a flock' or 'get a bunch of followers' for us country folk types, and "Voila!"- The pastor and bishop/elder as one and the same looks better, given that one of the 'jobs/duties' of the elders is that of 'shepherding'. Tack onto that the fact that most folks don't want too much competition with themselves, especially when one loves to have some supposed authority, and we are where we are. Somehow, I seem to recall Jesus saying something about that a time or two.

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[b]
(Matt. 28:18-20 - NKJV)

Somehow, I don't seem to recall reading anywhere that he gave any of that authority away to any so-called, self-styled 'pastor'. :sleeping_2: : G'nite all!

Ed

 

[Jerome]

This is from the Way of Life Encyclopedia:

The Pastor's Authority

(5) Deacons are never referred to in the capacity of ruling or overseeing churches. The deacon is a servant, not a ruler.

Why, then, is "ruling their children and their own houses well" (I Tim. 3:12) a qualification for deacons?

 

[EdSutton]

That one article on pastoral authority on teaching seemed to be a bit on the authoratarian side.

I don't agree with the hired pastor concept (and therefore the just fire the pastor concept.) But the Bible does say the saints are to be of one heart and one mind. There are more cases of the epistles warning _congregations_ to deal with false teachers, false prophecies, and false doctrines than there are passages telling pastoral leaders to deal with it. The whole body has a responsibility to guard the teaching.

Also, the apostles appointed a group of elders in every church, not just 'the pastor.' The Bible calls these men elders or overseers. Acts 20 would indicate that the elders are to watch out, because wolves would arise from their own number. If an elder turns into a wolf or speaker of perverse things, the other elders are to watch out for that. If there is just one elder, what happens to the congregation if he turns out to be a wolf? That is one of the major problems with the one-pastor system.

I previously attempted to respond to this post, but must have somehow deleted it, accidentally. So I'll try again.
Link, I'd offer that your short post here is one where you have hit the nail dead center with your head!! I agree with what you have written wholeheartedly. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

How?

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

This does not say they were apostles. It just says that were with the apostles. This raises an issue of other Apostles existing prior to that of Paul by the last part of the verse.

Sorry, I missed this post earlier, and did not comment.

Yes, certainly there were "other Apostles existing prior to that of Paul", as you have written.

#1. The twelve (including Judas Iscariot) called 'apostles' in Matthew 10: 2-4.

#2. Matthias [ Acts 1:26, where it is said - "And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. " (cp. Acts 6:2- " Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables." and c.f. Luke 8:1 and John 6:67,70 whre we woud see that the phrase "the twelve" is used multiple times for the 'extant company' of the Apostles. Hence, "the twelve (including Matthais).

#3. James, the Lord's brother - i.e. also known extra-Biblically as "James, the Just" [whom the risen Lord made a 'special' appearance to, BTW, (I. Cor. 15:7)] and spoken of viz. " But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother." (Gal. 1:19).

As I count, that makes 14 different individuals who were spoken of as "apostles" and also who were "existing prior to that of Paul", as you put it.

Hope that helps.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Why, then, is "ruling their children and their own houses well" (I Tim. 3:12) a qualification for deacons?

Welcome to the BB. :thumbsup: (Don't forget your 'flak' jacket and hardhat! :laugh

Although you did not ask this of me, I'll toss in my two yen, anyway. In short, and colloquially, I'd offer that Biblically, the 'diaconate' is "Training Camp" for the "bishoprick". Read all I Tim. 3, and compare with Acts 6, Acts 20, and Titus 1 and see what I mean, especially where the concepts of "not a novice", "proved" and "is blameless" vs. "being found blameless" are given.
And as to the "Why"- Scripture says it, happens to be the best answer I can give, except to add that the idea of 'a good testimony of the church' is suggested, as well.

Hope this helps.

Ed

 

[Joe90]

But my question is this in the NT when speaking of Church offices the term 'pastor' is never mentioned. However Bishop is.

Look up Ephesians 4:11.

Seems pretty clear...

 

[EdSutton]

Look up Ephesians 4:11.

Seems pretty clear...

Yes it does! Very clear to me, anyway. Pastor (and) teacher is spoken of as one of some twenty-some-odd 'spiritual gifts' that are ennumerated and given to the church. But 'pastor' is NOT spoken of as a 'position' or 'office' in the (esp. local) church.

Bishop or elder is spoken of as a 'position(s)' or 'office(s)' in the (esp. local) church, (of a possible maximum of no more than five ennumerated - The Lord Jesus Christ who is the head, a.k.a. the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls; bishop(s)/elder(s); deacon(s); deaconess(es)??; and saint(s); - as I read it.). But 'bishop' or 'elder' is NOT spoken of as a 'spiritual gift' that is given to the church. That is how I read it anyway.

As I have consistently stated, the Bible does not confute or confuse these 'gifts' and 'offices'. We would do well to not do so, either.:thumbsup:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

'Pastors' shows up in Ephesians 4:11 without any explanation of what the word means. Literally, it means to shepherd. There is a closely related verb form in the New Testament, but translators obscured its relationship to the word 'pastor' or 'shepherd' by translating it 'feed' or 'tend.'

In I Peter 5, Peter tells the elders to 'pastor' the flock of God. In Acts 20:28, Paul tells the elders of the church to 'pastor' the church of God, over whom the Holy Ghost had made them bishops/overseers.

So we see the elders of the church being called bishops. Titus 1 also uses the terms 'bishop' and 'elders' interchangeably to refer to the same people.

What are elders? This is confusing because a lot of churches have 'board elders' that aren't expected to pastor, and another guy called 'the pastor.' We don't see this in the Bible.

What we do see is that the apostles appointed a _group of men_ to over see the church. Acts 14 shows us that the apostles Paul and Barnabas appointed 'elders' (older men/senior men) in the churches started through their ministry on that journey.

So we don't see the 'Senior Pastor' role, except Peter did mention a 'Chief Pastor.' Of course, he was referring to the Lord.

How is the Biblical elder different from the modern pastor?

One is that the Biblical elder had to live up to qualifications listed in Titus 1 and I Timothy 3. For example, he had to rule his house well. Some churches require this now, but a lot of churches do not. After all, they call the guy 'pastor' and not 'elder', so they might not see the connection.

In some churches, you just have to claim to be 'called' and speak well enough to get the job. In other churches, they will accept you if you went to Bible college or seminary and are in the career track for being an elder and speak well or jump through the denominational hoops.

Something else to notice is that the apostles appointed elders/bishops from within the local church. They didn't hire a religious professional from the outside who would just leave after a couple of years.

Some people get confused over this because they think Timothy and Titus were 'pastors' in the popular sense of the word. I Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6-7 would seem to indicate that Timothy was an apostle. Clearly he was engaged in apostolic work with Paul. He was appointing local leadership, apparently, not serving as the local pastor in the modern sense of the word.

Also, another main difference between the professional pastor and the Biblical elder is the scope of ministry. The modern pastor is expected to do most of the talking and teaching on Sunday morning. But in the New Testament, we see that this was the responsibility of various saints in the congregation. In Corinthians 14:26 showed that 'every one of you' had something to sing or say in church. Hebrews 10:24-25 also shows us that when we go to church we are supposed to edify one another.

The Biblical elders is supposed to be 'apt to teach', but he isn't supposed to do all the talking in church or keep the saints from operating in their gifts. The elder is to be an example to the flock, including an example of how to minister so they can follow his example. They can see how he teaches and do the same in church, see how he sings, or uses whatever gifts he has. The Biblical elder, on the other hand, does have the responsibility to stop those who teach false doctrine like Titus 1 describes. They do this by lovingly confronting the trouble-makers as this scripture describes, and not by making rules that prevent the saints from using the gifts that scripture commands them to use.

Looking back over the thread, I notice that I failed to comment on this overall very excellent post. But it does merit some comment, IMO. So here goes.

Amen and Amen! Preach on Brother or Sister Link! Your position is consistent with what I believe Scripture teaches, and you have probably stated this better than I. :thumbs: :thumbsup: :applause: raise:


Ed

 

[Jerome]

Why do so few Baptist churches use the biblical term "bishop"?

 

[Joe90]

The five fold ministry is for the building up of the body of Christ.

Some pastors, some teachers, some prophets, some apostles, some evangelists.

I don't see 'to the letter' instructions on how to organise these offices, like the laws of Moses were.

Christ came to do away with the law.

Pastor is biblical. I think the word means 'shepherd'. Some teach, some evangelise, some shepherd (look after) the flock etc etc.

How hard is that?

 

[EdSutton]

The five fold ministry...How hard is that?

If ya' got your 'hardhat' and 'flak jacket', welcome to the BB. (If not, I suggest gettin' 'em, but welcome anyway. :laugh: ) Anywho, let's look at your post. I completely agree with parts of it, disagree with others, and partially agree with still others. (I'll toss in my two pfennings worth after each sentence or so using quotes around your words, and putting them in 'bold'.)

"The five fold ministry is for the building up of the body of Christ."

I basically agree but might add that I would not use "five fold ministry" in this sentence, but rather 'gifts' as that is the subject here in Eph.4, and would add that (these) gifts are given for the three-fold? purpose of - (a.) for the equipping of the saints (b.) for the work of ministry, (c.) for the edifying of the body of Christ, to use the NKJV language.

"Some pastors, some teachers, some prophets, some apostles, some evangelists."

Basically agree, although I'm not sure I would differentiate, here, between pastor and teacher.

"I don't see 'to the letter' instructions on how to organise these offices, like the laws of Moses were."

Agreed as to 'to the letter' instructions, per se. Disagree with confuting of "offices" in the place of "gifts", as I have stated many times.

"Christ came to do away with the law."

Let's slow down just a bit on this one. Although I think I know what you are saying, or at least intending, I just want to be sure we are talking about the same thing, here. If, by the phrase, - No- let me start from scratch, on this.
Jesus said, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” (Matt. 5: 17-18 - NKJV) So I would ask what exactly do you mean by "do away with"? And I would also like to know what you mean by "the law"? For I submit that the Lord Jesus Christ did not "do away" with "the law", at all. The sentence, is far too ambiguous, and so I'd like to explain what I mean, and believe.
First, as to "the law" - As to the Mosaic Law, I agree that we are not under it, for we are not 'under' the law but 'under' grace. BTW, as far as I can tell, any time we have the exact words in the NT of "the law" it refers to the Mosaic Law. When something else it intended, it is fairly clear from additional words. For instance, I suggest that we are now said to be 'guided by' or 'under', if you will, four laws- the law of faith; the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, where it is contrasted to the law of sin and death, another phrase that refers to the Mosaic Law, as I see it; the Law of liberty; and the royal Law or "Law of Love". And I would prefer to say, as opposed to "do away with" that the Lord, after 'fulfilling' the Mosaic Law, then - well, I'll let the Scripture say it, instead -

14For *he* is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of enclosure,
15having annulled the enmity in his flesh, the law of commandments in ordinances, that he might form the two in himself into one new man, making peace;
16and might reconcile both in one body to God by the cross, having by it slain the enmity; (Eph. 2:14-16 - Darby)


14having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross; (Col. 2:14 - YLT)

Perhaps I'm quibbling, which I do not really like to do, but I would prefer to say that "the law", was "set aside" by the Lord Jesus, after he fulfilled it, and He, Himself, nailed it to the cross. Thereupon it could be described as "done away", I guess, and still satisfy my nitpickin', as well.


"Pastor is biblical. I think the word means 'shepherd'. Some teach, some evangelise, some shepherd (look after) the flock etc etc."

I fully agree that the gift of pastor (actually pastor and teacher) is Biblical. In fact, I stated that earlier in the thread. Certainly, not everybody does the same thing.

"How hard is that?"

Apparently pretty hard for some, at least as to the 'gift' part. Just check out the marquee boards of most churches. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed